Why is Teesside so quiet?

[Poke]

Went over to the recently revamped Teesside last weekend. Saturday was a beautiful sunny day, there were hundreds of non-boaters out for the day, walking round the course and soaking in the sun, there was barely any water in any 'proper' rivers, but the course was practically void of paddlers.

Aside from our group, all we saw was a few slalom boaters getting off as we arrived, and maybe another 6 other rec paddlers in the rest of the whole day. There were only two rafting groups during the whole day. Speaking to other local boaters, it appears this isn't a one-off.

So, why are there so few paddlers there? Back when it first opened, you'd be queueing for ages in each eddy before you got a ride. It's an excellent resource and now they're practically giving away kayaking sessions at £6 per day. Why is it that noone seems to be going there any more?

Discuss(!)

[Canoe_princess]

For me...
*Its in Teesside, hardly an uplifting environment, really don't want to go there on my day off.
*Urban water, not as clean as a proper river.
*Its still £6, so that is £24 for my family, real rivers are free.
*It isn't like a real river
*once you have been round a few times, that is it. It gets boring compared to a ww trip.
*The features are shallow... makes me reluctant to play.

Ultimately, I like to get in as many different trips as possible. I really only visit the local home runs of upper Swale & upper Tees more than once in a year.

It is ok going there once a year or so as somewhere different.

[TheKrikkitWars]

Firstly to respond to the outright negativity above:

*Its in Teesside, hardly an uplifting environment, really don't want to go there on my day off.

Well that's a nice way to write off the whole of cleveland isn't it?

*It isn't like a real river

And?

*once you have been round a few times, that is it. It gets boring compared to a ww trip.

Try harder, do more, be silly, make the most of a safe controled environment... All WW courses are what *you* make of them.

*The features are shallow... makes me reluctant to play.

Can't say I'd noticed that whilst I was endering my Jefe, (or getting beaten down, for trying to show off, endering my Jefe)

In any case, pretty much all those criticisms could be levied at any of the whitewater courses/centers, just replacing 'Teesside' with Nottingham, Greater London, Cardiff, Northampton, Bedford or Bala as appropriate... So it's not really about the tees course and more about your negative perceptions of artificial whitewater



Anyway, Rant over...

I don't understand it either Tim, the handful of times I've been to-date I've had a ball (even if I did turn the air blue after breaking a slalom boat and swimming at BUCS)...

I'm lead to believe that the quality of the set-up* and the nature of the features has been somewhat variable to date due to the competing needs of Rescue Training, Paddling and Rafting; which could well contribute to a poor perception, though I'm told it's been getting much better in that regard...

I did actually try to convince our group to go to teesside last weekend, but the desire to paddle a 'real river' prevailed, much to my chargrin at the sub-optimal levels... (not that I didn't enjoy myself like)

*For instance I was there not so long ago, and most of the features were set up as quite strongly retentive holes... which gave me a great deal of fun, not to mention entertainment, but might have been a bit off-putting for some.

[LucyLou19]

Because its really far north?

[Rory W]

Nonsense it's practically the Midlands.

In answer to original question - no idea! I'd have been there if I wasn't at work. I quite liked the latest lot of features and £6 is really pretty cheap.

[SimonMW]

Because its really far north?

That's my main reason too. 4hrs drive for me. I'm not doing that for concrete!

Fact is that there aren't a massive number of whitewater boaters around. When a course first opens there will be a lot of people because they want to see what it is like, then things will tail off. I'm noticing that at Cardiff as well. It is nowhere near as busy now as it was when I first visited there not long after it opened.

In one way it is a shame, because when the weather is great and the rivers aren't running it is a great way to spend the day, *if* you are a good boater. One issue I have with the concrete WW courses is that for the most part they are extremely unforgiving of novice boaters. I speak as someone who is rubbish and who swims a lot.

For one thing I am amazed at how much it takes out of me from just one swim, then the whole thing of hoping some kind soul will retrieve my boat to stop me having to have a long swim against towback. Those bollards kill like f**k if you get hit in the wrong place too! And I don't necessarily mean you know where. My leg got properly skewered last week at Cardiff from one of those semi submerged jobs on the top of one of the drops. Okay, my other leg got the crap kicked out of it on Tryweryn the previous week, but that was from an artificially placed rock too!

There's generally no nice calm eddies where boats can easily be retrieved. Instead it's a walk of shame right to the end.

Rafts are a huge issue, and one that cannot be solved because they are how these centres make their money. But for less experienced boaters they really are a menace, both in the boat and while swimming.

Joules, who frequents these forums also made the point to me that the courses are too confined. For commercial places, perhaps with the exception of Lee Valley (though I haven't been on it, only seen it on videos) they are quite narrow channels, and the eddies and flow simply doesn't really behave like a river, which has natural undulations and shape to the bed and to the banks. The concrete courses are more like a number of weirs one after another, along with the associated weird flow characteristics.

I just wish they would try to make them more naturalistic, even if that means that it has a set type of flow and features instead of being able to move bollards around. If if they must have bollards, why can't they at least be rounded?! Oh and to give some space so that a swim doesn't have to mean that the boat gets swept right the way to the end.

HPP is much better in this regard.

[Lancs_lad]

I like it, been on a few occasions this year. Each time it has been slightly different as they are tweaking the course. The problem for me is I have been horrendously ill after it on the last 3 visits. So I cant risk it with having work on a Monday. Its the school hols now so may go over at sometime as I can afford to be ill for a bit.

[nick 16]

I was there on Sunday there were a decent amount of boaters until about 3 then there were less than 10. I was quite impressed with the development of the features happy eater was really quite retentive on sunday unlike the flushy thing when the course reopened. Cruncher also seamed a bit more retentive I managed to get some spins in my everest and we were all doing some pop outs and I dont remember hitting the bottom. Acid drop gave out the odd spanking but the levels fluctuated through the day and it became more friendly giving spins and good pop outs( btw most of us were in river/creek boats). At £6 I thought it was well worth it especially due to the naff water levels at the mo and apart from the tryweryn its cheaper than everywhere else as far as I know, my nearest man made section is washburn which is now £9. All of our group had a fantastic day on the water and thought it was worth the trip from Leeds. To add Ive never been ill from a visit to Tees Barrage

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[steve4746]

I think the problem is that when the course re-opened it was rubbish and cost a fortune which certainly must have got peoples backs up (it certainly did mine), I went again to give it a chance and was still the same. Since then Iv'e heard about the course being re jigged and played about with, the fact of the matter its no where near as good as HPP, I can't comment on the other man made parks because I have not been, I also prefer running "real" rivers but see the need and importance of these places as an excellent training resource.To finish while ever their is any remaining bad thoughts or doubts about Tees Barrage then I can't see me risking giving up my spare time or money to give it another try!

[Sickboy]

To answer one or two of SImonMW'S gripes, pumped courses have to be kept shallow to ease the price the paddlers/rafters pay, more water needs more pumps thus more money is needed to turn them on. Cardiff is evil shallow (especially on 4) but then your paying £12 to paddle all day. LV Legacy which is actually a pleasant swim (if fast) is going to cost you £5 an hour, many simply won't/can't pay that much on an even semi regular basis. The main course is £10 an hour and only available if there are rafters to help pay for it. It's easy enough to work out the break even on a course, call them up and ask for a hour club booking,

As for the eddies being unriver like, this I'm sure is down to the smooth bottom inside the eddy itself, I've always thought that a block or two in the bottom would stop a lot of the recirculating people hate, but then its extra cost for some more lego bricks.

Teesside is too far north for me, I'd have to drive past LV (if it was open, darn Olympics, oh the irony) Nene and HPP. I 'd be more likely to head to Cardiff on 12 night!!!!

[SimonMW]

I don't have so much of a problem with the shallowness. It is those bollards that seem to cause the physical grief. HPP is a good system though. No pumps to pay for, and in some sections it is very deep. Of course it does have problems with flooding occasionally like this year, but that's quite rare. I'm sure that there are many big sections of river in the UK that have large dangerous weirs and hence a gradient that could be used in a similar way to HPP rather than using expensive pumps, and sorting out the problem of the dangerous weir at the same time. Don't the Yanks do this sort of conversion a lot?

I've always thought that a block or two in the bottom would stop a lot of the recirculating people hate, but then its extra cost for some more lego bricks.

It should have been factored in at the design stage. If this would have an effect it shouldn't have been too difficult to make the concrete bottom with undulations etc. I don't think that it helps that the courses are so narrow either. That probably has an effect too.

[sandra]

The thing that bothered me is that they put a load of money into 'improving' the course which resulted in it becoming more expensive, never open (or when open only 1 channel is running), and perhaps worse than it used to be. The insertion of the screws was meant to make the course runnable at all times, not just with the tides as it used to be, yet since it re-opened it hasn't been open anywhere near as much as it used to be when it was just tide-dependant!

Most their opening times are during the working day, which makes it difficult for people to head there after work, which, other than weekends, would surely be the peak-time for kayakers.

I haven't been for quite a while, and when I did go the features just didn't seem as good as they used to be...acid drop is nowhere near as scary/fun as it used to be on a 0.8 or lower tide, Valentines gone, Cruncher okish, Happy Eater really flushy and no Easy Rider, although the bit under the bridge is ok now. Perhaps it's because when I was about 12/13 I thought the Tees barrage was THE coolest place in the whole world, and now I've just grown up a bit and become more of a whitewater snob so it doesn't seem quite as exciting as it used to be.

I'm headed there this afternoon, so hopefully recent changes will have improved things. It was always a good place to go on a lovely summer day, and it will always be my favourite whitewater course! I have never got sick off the Tees, and when I went training the other month below the barrage I got followed the whole way by a curious seal so it can't be that dirty! Most major industrial works that could pollute the river are downstream of the barrage and upstream is really quite pleasant so the water quality going down the course I'm sure is not that bad.

[Mark Mulrain]

I've had a look at coming down a few times, but whenever I've had a look at the times the course is only running for 1 hour a day. That's just not worth the drive.

I had great fun at Teeside when I was younger and plenty of my club members would benefit from a trip down (so they can learn to take a beating in holes ;)). If there was a decent run over a weekend I think I'd make the trip down.

[clarky999]

Last time we tried it go it was closed 'cos Ben bloody Fogel was building a house in it or something equally stupid.

[BaldockBabe]

1. It is a long way away.

2. They make it so expensive to hold slalom competitions (now cancelled) that is it not worth going that far to train somewhere where I will not be competiting.

3. They have Rapid Blocks and I don't think Rapid Blocks are safe.

For me HPP is nearer, they charge a reasonable price to hold competitions so they are held there thus training is worthwhile and they DONT have Rapid Blocks. I will travel to the Trywerwyn (not much closer than Tees) for the same reasons.

If I were in my plastic boaty I would still not travel there for reason 3 when I could go to HPP or the Trywerwyn (or even a proper river).

[Jim]

Nonsense it's practically the Midlands.

Poppycock, it's definitely in the south!

If I even had time to go boating at the moment I would probably do a Garry run in an evening, closer, cheaper and a more scenic drive up. Not as good for playing (as the old course, not been for years) and would have to put up with the midges.
Or Stanley, even closer.

I'm surprised it is not in use by the locals, but I suspect looking at the weather we have had this summer that they might be out paddling rivers and making comments like "I can't remember when this was last up in July"....

[Neptune]

Tim,

That was one of the options we considered for Sunday but went to the Upper Tees instead. 0.65 on the gauge so although a little low it was still good fun and plenty of time to have multiple runs on each of the rapids/drops carrying back up and with the added bonus of Nic's coaching too.

Only been to Tees WW course once, shortly after it had opened, so it was expensive then. It was also set up for the slalomn boys and girls at the time and only the long course was running that day so a bit disappointing really.

Looks much better now that they have had time to play about with the set up a bit and as you say at £6.00 much better value for money. So if this sunshine keeps up we will be giving it another go.

Peter

[Jim Pullen]

Now it's £6 I'm perfectly happy to go every time the holy trinity of time off work, time off from family commitments and no water in local rivers coincide. This is rare, but when I have been recently there's only been a couple of other boaters on the water.

Initially the £15 thing put me off a little bit, especially as I could usually only spare 3 hours or so, now at £6 it's a bargain and I would probably pay a little more. I would go more often if it was open more evenings after work, particuarly in the summer. The odd Wednesday here and there doesn't really cut it. I can be there within about 10mins from finishing so a bit more opening 5-8pm would make me go far more.

It's annoying that the short course isn't run more often (I've only caught it once) as there's nothing really comparable at other UK artificial courses. The long course features are still enough to sustain my interest for a few hours in their current configuration and the difference in flow levels and rapid block tinkering seems to mean it changes every time I go (and sometimes whilst I'm there!)

I think economically they're having issues. Running the short course is a particular problem with H&S requiring an extra member of staff present, combined with the additional flow demands. The rumour is also that the screws aren't generating the expected amounts of power which is really going to affect the economic viability and explains why they seem to be relying on tides again or only pumping on the minimum number of screws.

With the sunnier weather and more opening hours, I would expect numbers to be higher over the August period, but can we please have at least one more evening a week?

[Dannn]

Myself and a few mates have been 5 times in the last 8 weeks we all think it's great, espically since we live in Newcastle.
I liken it to indoor climbing, it's just a training venue for the real thing whilst we have been there the levels have been constantly changed so no 2 runs are exactly the same
Everyone has to admit that it's better than no paddling at all
My only gripe the time before last I was really, really I'll after being there

[Jamie@Openplayboater]

I am also suprised that Tees Side isn't getting more use. Following a shoulder injury I hadn't been down to Tess side since November but went back a couple of weeks ago expecting there to be more people on the water now word had got out but it was just as quiet.

I know it can be a long way North for a lot of people but at the same time it is really handy for those people that live in the North. Granted with all the rain that has been about, people up North have been treated to rivers running more often than would probably be usual but there really arent that many playspots up this way. I can understand the travel issue as I struggle to justify a two and a half hour each way journey to HPP plus the £11 (probably more these days) to paddle. However I am lucky in that I work in Darlington and can be on the water at Tees Side within half an hour from leaving the office.

In comparison to what Tees Side was previously I think the new facility is a vast improvement. Granted it is still shallow in places, but then most of the Tryweryn is shallow, parts of HPP are shallow, the Nene is shallow and from what I hear Cardiff is shallow so what's new. I love the fact that Happy Eater is now a hole that you can actually do something in other than flat spins which is what it used to be. I have seen people hitting loops, ends, tricky woos and a variety of other hole moves in there. It does depend on the level of the course and whether the short channel is running as well as the long though. Cruncher is a wavey hole that I will admit I am struggling to get working for me at the moment but I have seen other people flying in it so it is possible.

I think part of the problem is that Tees Side is one of those courses that will reward people that dial things in and get used to the characteristics of each feature. On a personal level I always struggled with the old Muncher at HPP but clearly watching the locals there was plenty of moves possible. I think Tees Side is the same. Get used to it and I think people will love it.

The course is evolving still as well. I know that the centre staff are organising days where a group of local paddlers come down and they look to improve the course. This can only be a good thing. The changes from November to now have been an improvement in my opinion and things can only get better with more feedback from paddlers.

People need to give the course time to evolve to get to where I am sure it can be. When Nottingham first re-opened there were things that people didn't like and they got to grips with it and improved things. Tees Side can do the same and at £6 a session is much cheaper than all the other white water courses in the UK.

Cheers

Jamie

[SimonMW]

The rumour is also that the screws aren't generating the expected amounts of power which is really going to affect the economic viability and explains why they seem to be relying on tides again or only pumping on the minimum number of screws.

If that is the case then it is disappointing, and shows a large error in the design stages. It was my understanding that it was designed to be able to use the tides at the same time as the screws, and to also use tidal energy to sell back to the grid when the course wasn't in use. In other words, wasn't it supposed to be designed to be economically neutral or thereabouts?

[AlexC]

Firstly to respond to the outright negativity above:

*Its in Teesside, hardly an uplifting environment, really don't want to go there on my day off.

Well that's a nice way to write off the whole of cleveland isn't it?

*It isn't like a real river

And?

*once you have been round a few times, that is it. It gets boring compared to a ww trip.

Try harder, do more, be silly, make the most of a safe controled environment... All WW courses are what *you* make of them.

*The features are shallow... makes me reluctant to play.

Can't say I'd noticed that whilst I was endering my Jefe, (or getting beaten down, for trying to show off, endering my Jefe)

In any case, pretty much all those criticisms could be levied at any of the whitewater courses/centers, just replacing 'Teesside' with Nottingham, Greater London, Cardiff, Northampton, Bedford or Bala as appropriate... So it's not really about the tees course and more about your negative perceptions of artificial whitewater

What a fatuous thing to write. The OP asked why so few people were going to Teesside. Princess gave some valid reasons why this might be and you just slam them for being negative.
Her reasons are valid reasons why [s]he doesn't go there. Who are you to tell her that she's wrong?

[Jim Pullen]

Aaaargggh! Just noticed that there's no evenings scheduled on their timetable for the whole of August! Are they trying to lose money!?

[BillAnderson]

Aaaargggh! Just noticed that there's no evenings scheduled on their timetable for the whole of August! Are they trying to lose money!?

Jim, while I share your frustrations with the evening opening do you really think with current numbers of paddlers paying £6 a day that the paddling income income is top of their priority?

Speaking to a member of staff I was told that their three priorities were WWS&R, rafting and power boating.

Having said that - the course is improving all the time and changes do seem to be much more frequent of late. As Jamie mentions above, the course has been open less than a year and it takes time to develop features. Having been part of the development days I've seen first hand just how difficult and time consuming it is to change features.

I've had a few fun sessions down there lately - you get out of the course what you put in at the end of the day!

3. They have Rapid Blocks and I don't think Rapid Blocks are safe.

Why do you think this? I've not seen any evidence to suggest other wise..

[Dave W]

Back in the barrage's prime, well before the revamp every one wanted tiny playboats... these days everyone is in creekers. The barrage is much more fun in a playboat in my opinion.

People would rather go and plop off water falls in their creekers than have a bit of fun splashing about with numb feet?

[Jim Pullen]

Aaaargggh! Just noticed that there's no evenings scheduled on their timetable for the whole of August! Are they trying to lose money!?

Jim, while I share your frustrations with the evening opening do you really think with current numbers of paddlers paying £6 a day that the paddling income income is top of their priority?

Speaking to a member of staff I was told that their three priorities were WWS&R, rafting and power boating.

Valid point, they make far more money out of those activities, but I'd argue that if they're employing staff to run the course for a few hours during the day when it'd only be used by kayakers anyway, why not shift the times a bit to help increase these numbers for exactly the same outlay?

[TheKrikkitWars]

Firstly to respond to the outright negativity above:

*Its in Teesside, hardly an uplifting environment, really don't want to go there on my day off.

Well that's a nice way to write off the whole of cleveland isn't it?

What a fatuous thing to write. The OP asked why so few people were going to Teesside. Princess gave some valid reasons why this might be and you just slam them for being negative.
Her reasons are valid reasons why [s]he doesn't go there. Who are you to tell her that she's wrong?

I'm ME, thats who I am to tell her she's wrong...

Anyway, I wouldn't have bothered replying to her but for the bolded bit in the quote... Whilst the tone of the whole post irked me a little bit, That wholly pissed me off. To me, it comes across as gratuitious, needless and kind of nasty; whilst it might not be the Côte d'Azur, Middlesborough is a perfectly normal british city like any other. There again; I think Hull is a nicer, unpretentious version of Liverpool, so I might just be a weirdo from back east, Make your own judgement.

[BaldockBabe]

3. They have Rapid Blocks and I don't think Rapid Blocks are safe.

Why do you think this? I've not seen any evidence to suggest other wise..

Because I broke my leg on a Rapid Block at Lee Valley. I can honestly say that I do not think it would have happened on an omniflot (like the ones at HPP) as I believe that the flat surface and square design (and the indent) meant that my leg had nowhere to go and snapped. Whereas if they had been rounded like at HPP my leg would have slid round and the chance of breaking would have been reduced.

On top of this, the grey colour meant that whilst floating on the surface (feet up and first as per the advice on safety course I have been on) I could not see the blocks very clearly (particularly the ones just below the surface) making avoidance also difficult.

I have never seen a square rock in a river and I am sure that there is a reason for this... Though I admit I have seen lots of grey rocks!!!

[Canoe_princess]

Anyway, I wouldn't have bothered replying to her but for the bolded bit in the quote... Whilst the tone of the whole post irked me a little bit, That wholly pissed me off. To me, it comes across as gratuitious, needless and kind of nasty; whilst it might not be the Côte d'Azur, Middlesborough is a perfectly normal british city like any other. There again; I think Hull is a nicer, unpretentious version of Liverpool, so I might just be a weirdo from back east, Make your own judgement.

Didn't mean to offend you... the post wasn't meant personally to anyone.

I spent several years working for a charity on Teesside as a youth worker taking the probationers,heroin adicts, prostitutes and disengaged youth on outdoor activity courses. I was not being nasty, guess I have seen a different side of the place... so going back there makes me feel sad. For me, a reason not to go.

Sadly it is a FACT that Teesside is one of the most run down and deprived areas of the UK. Regularly labeld one of the worst places to live in the UK in terms of economic decline, poverty, housing, mental health, unemployment, crime, drugs & alcohol, domestic violence, numbers of NEETS... all massively above the national average and getting worse by the day. This is why other national charities like the Prince's Trust are expanding in to Teesside.

All this is one reason that the WW course was built there in the first place, to aid the generation of a depressed, un-attractive post-industrial area.

I guess it is this funding that means the course still runs. Last time we were there they could only have taken £200ish in the day unless a lot of people paddled after we had gone. That won't cover the running costs.

[cp]

The barrage is empty simply due to the fact they do not really want recreational paddlers there but to keep it free for the corporate rafting and the elite few. The short course never seems to run, and the long course is much less forgiving than the old course and so appeals less to the lesser able paddler. It used to be a great forgiving place to practice but not any more.

Chris