BA foam degrading?

[tambakosi]

I was talking to Palm the other day if it was possible to replace the foam in my yr2000 Extreme II vest, they said it wasn't as certification had changed (or something to that effect). I was worried that the foam would have degraded in my BA due to its age (though I had about 5 years not paddling) - The person at Palm said that as long it looks in good condition there should not be a drop in performance and only way to really tell is to do a weight test.

Can anyone tell me whether this is true?

I have been looking at a new BA - tried the Palm Extrem Vest - hated it way to bulky and all those damn buckes and clips.
Also tried Astral Green Jacket - felt weird due to cut. Also BA sizing seems to have changed current BA L/XL (fits really well) if I got a new one sizing would be M/L and even then they don't fit well!!

Any other suggestions on a replacement BA? Really don't want to change if I don't have to but I would rather be safe.

Cheers
Jez

[minty]

I think the weight test is to attach about 5kg of weight to the ba and put it in water and see if it still floats. If it does it is still functional. bear in mind deteriotation of material etc if it has been subject to sunlight. As for replaceent ba loads to choose from and differnet cuts and functions. I think that has to be a personal choice.

alick

[Jwprobinson]

Try the Amp as its the pullover version of the Extreme and far less bulky

[morsey]

The person at Palm said that as long it looks in good condition there should not be a drop in performance and only way to really tell is to do a weight test.

Can anyone tell me whether this is true?

Yes, checking the overall condition of the Buoyo and float testing it is the only way to test it.

Palm Axis is more like your old buoyo if you want something similar or Palm Symbiant WW might be of interest.

[Boop]

The weight test is a 6kg weight I think, however whats a kilo between paddlers.

Life span of a BA stated by Peak UK is 4-5 years of average use. Sounds like yours has been out of action for a few years (having kids perhaps?) so it might still be ok to float you.

Peak UK's River Guide Vest is a simple unsophisticated but functional BA and crucially £50 cheaper than the Palm Extrem, however the Axis lives on and is excellent too and priced close to the River Guide.

If yours floats and isn't falling to bits, don't worry about it.

[Randy Fandango]

Life span of a BA stated by Peak UK is 4-5 years of average use.

I rang up Crewsaver about this very thing a few months ago (most of our centre BAs are Crewsaver/Yak) and they don't give an expected life span as 'average use' is such a subjective thing.
They suggest visual inspection as the way ahead with their stuff.
Giles

[Dave Manby]

Foam does degrade. Many years ago there was a proposal to date stamp PFDs/BAs so that you would know how old they were. You might have bought the item in 2005 but it could have been made in 2003 you have no idea how long it has sat on a shelf. This would have been part of the CEN regulations. It was not included in the regulations not because it would have had big implications for the manufacturer who may well get a large batch made in China. A "best before" date on a £100+ PFD has a greater implication on stock control than one on a 50p tin on beans. It was not included because back then no one had done any research on how much the foam will degrade in storage and very little of use had been done about degradation in normal use.How much does the fabric the foam is covered in effect the rate of degradation? What is normal use anyway? Do you sit on your jacket at a lunch stop? Do you hang it up at home or leave it stuffed in its bag? Do you paddle every day/week/month? Do you paddle in N. Wales or in a sunny country?

Hanging a 5kg or 6kg weight on a PFD and seeing if it floats will give you an idea but not a correct measurement of the buoyancy to measure that you have to take into account Archimedes Principle about what happens when a body is totally immersed in water (the telephone rings). It depends what your weights are made of as to how much weight you need to achieve 50kN buoyancy measurement.

I do remember throwing Slime's old Wildwater Explorer Buoyancy aid into an eddy at the take out for the Chilko to prove that he needed to buy another one. He claimed it was "fine and had plenty of life left in it the colour had just faded a bit" - the one side sank because the pocket on that side had two crabs and a knife in it. (Another occasion Whit was allowed to paddle the canyon by the Park Rangers in a 17 year old PFD but we could not wear our year old Serpent BAs .The problem with any regulation is that idiosyncratic cases will arrive)

[tambakosi]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for all the replies.

I will certainly do a weight test on my current BA - I was having a really blond moment the other thinking of how to do this, had it in my mind that I had to hang 50kg off it!! Now it all makes sense.

If it fails I will look at the BA's suggested.

Going back to the point about BA's being date stamped - Mine certainly is dated Year 2000 first Quarter and I can just about see the hand written serial number on the label. Seems strange that they have taken a backward step with this.

[Jon Wood]

To test a 50N buoyancy aid, you need to attach 5.5kg of lead/5.7-5.8kg of iron/steel and see if it floats in fresh water.

Fuller details here

[tambakosi]

Hi Jon,

Thanks for the info.

Cheers
Jez

[morsey]

Seems strange that they have taken a backward step with this.

More and more companies are using ECO foam and that is a step forwards.

[Dave Manby]

Hi Guys,

Going back to the point about BA's being date stamped - Mine certainly is dated Year 2000 first Quarter and I can just about see the hand written serial number on the label. Seems strange that they have taken a backward step with this.

Ah when I say many years ago I mean the 80s! So they haven't made a step backwards but forward! Is Eco foam any less subject to degradation?

[tambakosi]

Seems strange that they have taken a backward step with this.

More and more companies are using ECO foam and that is a step forwards.

Excuse my ignorance but what is ECO foam - have just Googled it and all I can find is a company in Canada. I had the same issue when I looked up the manufacturer of the current foam in my BA, found the website OK but then trying to find info on the foam, I came to a dead end - though now I know all about yoga mats.

[morsey]

Palm have lots of info on their website, including an environment page with links to the new foam.

They also have a product development page for their Extrem Buoyo: http://www.palmequipmenteurope.com/evolution/

[ion]

Seems strange that they have taken a backward step with this.

More and more companies are using ECO foam and that is a step forwards.

Excuse my ignorance but what is ECO foam - have just Googled it and all I can find is a company in Canada. I had the same issue when I looked up the manufacturer of the current foam in my BA, found the website OK but then trying to find info on the foam, I came to a dead end - though now I know all about yoga mats.

Foams that don't use PVC and other materials that are environmental nightmares: For example this company supplies (wholesale trade) foam that is used in many modern PFD's http://www.gaiafoam.com/