Rolling Question

[rafterman]

Hello, after paddling regularly for over 18 months, I am still trying to get my head around rolling.

I picked up rolling on one side within a few pool sessions and it was working quite well, however, after several attempts to try and 'refine' my roll by people trying to be helpful, I completely lost it, so at the minute I'm back to square one. I did find that the "bomproof roll and beyond" book was great but I am still trying to get my head around the part the paddle actually plays in rolling.

Is the paddle blade simply sculling across the surface of the water, this action produces propulsion and causes the boat to rotate?

As you can tell, I have spent a fair bit of time thinking about it but losing my roll has put me off kayaking for a while although I would like to get back into it.

[TheKrikkitWars]

Whilst not useful to your exact situation... Once you get it going again, just practice practice practice until it's ingrained; Force yourself to do ever more rolls ever quicker each time you practice and don't listen to advice from anyone but the person who originally taught you.

Until rolling is ingrained as just something you do in a boat it's easy for people describing conflicting styles to mess it up for you (even if they think they're being really helpful); once you've got one roll (and on one side) going fast and fluid... then you have the fall back required to play with rolling on the other side, different techniques and polishing the technique that you already use, if that makes sense.

[Scumbag_Scout]

The basic principle is that you want to move the paddle across the water at a speed where if you put any downward force on the paddle it will not sink and it will allow you to pull yourself up as if you were holding onto the side of a swimming pool.

The actual pull itself is very minimal, it only need be enough to get your boat to 90 degrees rotated, your hips should be able to flick the boat around for the last 90degrees.

Practice your hip flick on the edge on a swimming pool to the point where you can flick yourself up with next to no force on your arms at all.

Then get someone to hold a float in a swimming pool and they will put less and less pressure on it until you are hip flicking up on the slightest of pushes.

Then work on the motion of sweeping your paddle blade across the surface of the water, you need to twist the paddle a lot further than you will think to keep it on the surface, think about spreading butter or trying to scoop the surface off a pizza without breaking the base. If you practice this motion combined with your hipflick you will have a solid roll. Brute force need not be a part of it but can help sometimes when you need to roll in a hurry, but I've found my most powerful rolls to be the ones with the better technique.

Hip flick.. hip flick... hip flick... hip flick....

[mills82]

Try not to think about it. I did my first roll in 30 mins and was going great until people started trying to introduce different rolls to me then it all went to pot, So I ignored them got what I had back and took it from there.

Also what roll were you taught I was taught C to C but everybody else I paddle with uses a screw roll so they might be trying to teach you a different roll to what your used to.

As said above get a roll that works for you then work from there. I started of with a C to C I can now do a screw roll and back deck but if they fail I know that I can go back to what I was taught

[SimonMW]

One of the best explanations for what is happening during a roll.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ff_te_yjcHM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dguv1CdEJXQ

[nutterboy]

If you do a C to C roll then think of it knida like a high brace after you push down and sweep out

it you use a screw roll then ignore me cos I do a C to C

[maximoso]

I found this pretty useful when trying to explain to people what they were doing while upside down. I was always told to tuck forwards rather than look at the "name" of your boat but whatever works I guess

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBvX99KP0Do&feature=related

[SimonMW]

The OP sums it up pretty well when he says that people trying to help him improve can make things worse. Having gone through (and still going through to a certain extent) the process of nailing in straight simple terms the right body English that gets a roll working each and every time, I can relate to his problems.

You need to understand the basic simple thing that makes the roll work, and you also need to identify, in simple bullet point terms that you can remember under pressure under water in an instant, what is stopping your roll working at the moment.

For example in my case two things clarified the roll for me.

1) Discovering that the screw roll does not need "hip snap".
2) Discovering that in rolls like the C-C advice like "keep the head down" or "bring the head up last" were just as useless as "paddle, paddle, paddle!" being shouted at a beginner on a rapid.

Watch the kayak roll identifier videos I linked to. It'll help you to understand the mechanics. And most of all keep going at it.

[TechnoEngineer]

Get Kent Ford's "The Kayak Roll" DVD (Performance Video) and watch it.

Don't pull down on the paddle; it's there for support like the ground is there for support when you're walking (i.e. you don't push your feet on the floor do you?)

Make sure you get the boat underneath you first; if the boat isn't nearly upright (to within about 30 degrees) then it won't provide you with the "secondary stability" you need to get your body, and finally your head, back up.

Make sure you pre-rotate when you set up, so your body is "coiled up like a spring".

[Rhod]

I picked up rolling on one side within a few pool sessions and it was working quite well.................... losing my roll has put me off kayaking for a while although I would like to get back into it.

Whilst it may not feel like it, in many ways you are now in a better situation. Most paddlers have a weak roll on one side because they learnt to roll on one side before the other, often a long time before. Whatever method you use to re-learn, try and work on both sides. One on the right, one on the left/two on the right, two on the left. It takes a little longer to learn this way but you really won't regret it!

With regards to the method there is no substitute for good coaching, listen to advice and work with a variety of people.

[Chris Bolton]

As the OP says, people trying to help can actually hinder - you need to find the way to understand it that best suits you. The advice posted by Scumbag_Scout may indeed help, but similar advice was the main block on my rolling until I thought about it a different way.

The basic principle is that you want to move the paddle across the water at a speed where if you put any downward force on the paddle it will not sink and it will allow you to pull yourself up as if you were holding onto the side of a swimming pool.

Putting downward force on the paddle while it was moving over the water was the killer for me - in effect I tried to right myself too soon. I found it much better to think that I had to move the paddle with the blade at an angle which meant that it did not sink; this allowed me to get the paddle to a position at 90º to the boat, at which point it gave me plenty of support and the roll was effortless. But I'm not criticising the advice - it may be exactly what some people will find works.

Chris

[rafterman]

Hi Gents, thanks for the replies. Pretty helpful.

The basic principle is that you want to move the paddle across the water at a speed where if you put any downward force on the paddle it will not sink and it will allow you to pull yourself up as if you were holding onto the side of a swimming pool.

Rightho, so the motion of the paddle through the water is creating lift, which allows you to apply a modicum of downwards pressure...?

Now that you mention it, when I was rolling well, I could hipflick back up with only a fingertip hold on the side of the pool.

[rafterman]

Also what roll were you taught

I'm sweep rolling

[rafterman]

Get Kent Ford's "The Kayak Roll" DVD (Performance Video) and watch it.

This one? http://www.performancevideo.com/the_kayak_roll

Make sure you get the boat underneath you first

Before hip flicking?

[rafterman]

Putting downward force on the paddle while it was moving over the water was the killer for me

Is this what causes the paddle to 'dive'?

[Rhod]

Blade diving will be because you are pulling down to close to the kayak or the blade angle is wrong (angled so it sweeps downward and not up). If you feel it sinking take it back up, adjust the angle and try again. Try getting someone to film you doing it and see if that helps.

[TechnoEngineer]

Get Kent Ford's "The Kayak Roll" DVD (Performance Video) and watch it.

This one? http://www.performancevideo.com/the_kayak_roll

Yes

Make sure you get the boat underneath you first

Before hip flicking?

The "hip flick" (or leg swing, or knee ram) is what gets your boat underneath you. You are literally ramming the boat underneath your body with your legs and arse.

[SimonMW]

I would second Technoengineers suggestion of Kent Ford's DVD. It explains a lot in simple terms.

Before hip flicking?

The "hip flick" (or leg swing, or knee ram) is what gets your boat underneath you. You are literally ramming the boat underneath your body with your legs and arse.

The idea of the hip flick always messed me up when trying to roll. Once I stopped thinking about the hip flick, things started to work better. I discovered that with a sweep roll a conscious hip flick is not really needed because the body mechanics of the sweep (assuming it is being performed correctly by sweeping/rotating the torso and not just the arms/paddle) brings the hips around automatically in a smooth motion.

But just going back to the idea of the hip flick for a moment, more for C-C etc, the idea of a hip flick can be misleading, and I think can be a big cause of pulling down on the paddle for purchase because a newcomer (this was a conundrum I had) may think that they can't hip flick without any proper purchase. With the C-C I found that once I started thinking about bringing my torso down to meet my opposite hip side (as in the Chris Spelius videos) instead of trying to flick the hip, everything started to work much better.

This was because by bringing the torso down to meet the opposite side hip automatically engages the knee/hip and possibly the opposite bum cheek as well to help push down the opposite side of the boat. The paddle goes down in the water to an extent as a result of this. Not because it is being pulled, but just as a side effect of the torso motion.*

*I am not an expert nor do I claim to be, and I still have an "OMG I came up again!" moment when I do a successful roll in anger! In fact yesterday was the first time I managed to roll on that pesky CIWW course.

[Chris Bolton]

Putting downward force on the paddle while it was moving over the water was the killer for me

Is this what causes the paddle to 'dive'?

The paddle will dive if the angle is wrong, but you will get a similar effect if you try to pull down on the paddle when it's too close to the boat. As you said, you can hipflick on one finger, but you need to be in the right place to do it. Don't sweep the blade out and pull down at the same time - sweep out first, then pull down.

Chris

[BurrsRunner]

Putting downward force on the paddle while it was moving over the water was the killer for me

Is this what causes the paddle to 'dive'?

The paddle will dive if the angle is wrong, but you will get a similar effect if you try to pull down on the paddle when it's too close to the boat. As you said, you can hipflick on one finger, but you need to be in the right place to do it. Don't sweep the blade out and pull down at the same time - sweep out first, then pull down.

Chris

Or better still, don't pull down at all, at least not consciously anyway.

As Chris Spelius states in the video above (twist & slice roll identifier (aka the sweep roll)) "It's almost effortless, it's graceful and you come up in a strong paddling position". The sweeping arc that you carve with the paddle blade from front left side to rear right side (for a right-handed roll) will roll the kayak over without any need to noticeably pull down.

I learned to roll from this video alone and successfully rolled the first time I tried it...on my fourth time in a kayak...that's how good this method is! But laziness causes sloppiness and I was too lazy early on to roll as often as I should have, my roll got sloppy, I lost confidence, then I lost my roll and had to start again by studying the technique all over again. Since then I rolled several times every time I got in my kayak, and now begin every paddling session with a few rolls immediately after launching.
Once my roll became bomb-proof I gained the confidence to start learning how to do other rolls, knowing that if the roll failed I could simply set-up and sweep it up.

So, watch that video a hundred times if need be then go out there and practise until you can practise no longer, then - every time you go paddling, set yourself a target number and make sure you roll at least that many times. Once you become more comfortable with it, try to arrange rolling competitions with your paddling buddies e.g. who can do the most rolls in ten seconds, who can do the quickest ten rolls (I managed to get this one down to 14 seconds due to the fact that I was competing - it's amazing how a bit of competitive spirit can help you), who can do the slowest sweep roll (my bro' has me on this one and managed to make a sweep roll last 4 seconds, that is to say that it took the kayak 4 seconds to roll over from upside down to right way up), I'm sure you could think of more.
Before long rolling will simply become something that you do, rather than something that you think about. I'm a fairly mediocre paddler at best but I expect my roll to bring me up first time, every time, and I'm quite honestly shocked on the odd occasion that it doesn't. You just have to put in the time and effort.

[daverice]

Get someone to video you. What you think you are doing, and what you are actually doing, are likely two different things...

[SimonMW]

Get someone to video you. What you think you are doing, and what you are actually doing, are likely two different things...

Seconded. Invaluable.

[BurrsRunner]

Get someone to video you. What you think you are doing, and what you are actually doing, are likely two different things...

Seconded. Invaluable.

Thirded (Is that a word?.....It is now) I used video footage of another persons roll to show him where his roll was going wrong and it really helped.

[BadgerBoy]

Take a look at this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhQ6BgoenNA

Apart from anything else, the idea of using an air bag in this way means you can practice to your heart's content while being confident that you can keep breathing while you practice.

[Gazza]

I think, therefore I roll....

But I am sure the inverse is actually true. In other words, try not to think and over analyse it too much about it just do it..... And keep doing it till it works naturally and without thought. You clearly know how as you did it before you lost it, so don't over analyse just keep trying.

Strangely I learnt to hand roll first, which I think is bad practice as I found out after on the river that my natural instinct was to chuck my paddle anyway and hand roll everytime, which isn't a good thing for obvious reasons. Anyway, for me after people trying to tell me what to do and analysing me didn't help, the best thing I did was take myself away from all the conflicting advice and go for it - initially using the side of the pool as a support till I could pretty much rotate the boat almost 180 degrees back and forth without my hand moving or applying much pressure on the pool edge. Anyway this got my hip flick second nature so I didn't have to think about it - after that hand rolling was a doddle. Paddle rolling was a bit more faff as the stinking paddles kept getting in the way, but once I learnt to forget about exact positions and just wazz my paddle blade round into any position that would provide a bit of traction on the water the hip flick did the rest.

If I recall, (as Im going back 15 years when I learnt, er or maybe 20) skulling for support till I was pretty much upside down over also helped me get my head around paddle position and pulling on the paddles to get back up.

[SimonMW]

Anyway, for me after people trying to tell me what to do and analysing me didn't help, the best thing I did was take myself away from all the conflicting advice and go for it

It depends on how the individual tackles problems. In my own case I had to micro analyse the roll in order that I could understand it in a way that my mind would be able to. Eventually I took all that micro analysis and settled on two key simple things that I could remember easily when practicing. But those things need to be thought of beforehand, and as you say, then just do it.

Mind preparation is part of this. Seeing yourself performing the movements and running through it smoothly and perfectly in your head I find often helps just before going for a practise roll.

As you said, Gazza, a lot of advice from different angles can make things worse, and the OP has managed to roll in the past. So he just needs to look at what he is doing now and try to find out what he is doing differently. It could be something really small. In my own case punching with the back hand was a big issue. So I had to devise a way that would physically automate a process that would prevent that from happening.

I'm not perfect, but now I am coming back up more than I am swimming.

[rafterman]

Take a look at this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhQ6BgoenNA

Doesn't seem to work?

[rafterman]

Anyway, for me after people trying to tell me what to do and analysing me didn't help, the best thing I did was take myself away from all the conflicting advice and go for it

It depends on how the individual tackles problems. In my own case I had to micro analyse the roll in order that I could understand it in a way that my mind would be able to. Eventually I took all that micro analysis and settled on two key simple things that I could remember easily when practicing. But those things need to be thought of beforehand, and as you say, then just do it.

Mind preparation is part of this. Seeing yourself performing the movements and running through it smoothly and perfectly in your head I find often helps just before going for a practise roll.

This is where I'm at right now. For some reason I can't really picture what the paddle should be doing...

Thanks for the info, gents. It's all really get different ideas and to discuss my thinking process.

I was having a dig around and came across this video:

http://wavesport.ning.com/profiles/blog ... leshooting

Will have to get down to the pool with a float!

[SimonMW]

This is where I'm at right now. For some reason I can't really picture what the paddle should be doing...

For that you definitely need some video feedback. Unless you can actually see with your own eyes what you are doing, it will be hard to find out what is going wrong.

[dmurf]

Twist and Slice Kayak roll identifier
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ff_te_yjcHM

This is some videos my boss made some time ago. From Expediciones Chile on the Futaleufu.

Make sure you identify your roll first
The hip flick has a key role in your roll, don't forget it.
What is your paddle doing..

We had alot of people coming to us looking to learn how to roll.
Before they even got in the water, we practiced roll drills with them on land.
Only when they had all the right movements correct did we move on to on the water rolls.

Follow the video and practice in your boat on land. Step by Step.
I hope this is of some help to you