Burn or new Mamber?

[kayakclive]

Hi Ive had a couple of Burns over the last 6 years but I have noticed in the last year quite a few Burns have had the noses reshaped easily mine included (once at CTs a month ago and once last week in Corsica on the Golo).

I suppoase my question is in 2 parts really

1. Is it a common thing for Burns to reshape the nose & do Pyranha know and are they sorting it out?

2. Has anyone got a New Mamber and what is it to paddle, is the nose strong?

Thanks Clive :-)

[Big Henry]

Have you searched this forum for threads about Burns and their plastic/noses, cos there has been a lot! I briefly (ironically) brought it up on the Incident on Mellte thread, but when you consider that boat in the photo went over a 25ft drop with a paddler in and landed on a rock, ending up like that, I would say that is a good result! At least he could paddle/walk away and repaired it himself afterwards, it could so easily have been worse. There has also been a recent post where a 4x4 reversed over a burn and ended up parked in the cockpit with no discernible damage to it. Don't know how it was when they got it out, though.

[Adrian Cooper]

A high proportion of accidents happen in the home = your home is not safe

The majority of car accidents happen within 10 miles of your house = you should avoid driving in this dangerous zone

[Performance Kayaks]

All Pyranha Burn owners need to have Front Airbags as there is very little front buoyancy in these boats. When they swamp, in and O.B.E. they sit Nose Low in the water and are prone to having the nose smashed in. Airbags will lift the front back to the surface and avoid this. It will not, however, avoid it if the boat goes over a drop. The Shiva ans Karnali will probably also suffer from this as Pyranha have not put Full Length Foam on the front of them either.

Most other boats: Mamba, Nomad, Habitat, Stomper, Jefe etc, all have Full Length Front Foam so have a more level stance in a Swamped Situation. We do, however, still recommend bagging a boat Front and Rear if you are paddling above G3.

[Mark Gawler]

Habitat - rubbish name, but I like the boat.

On the subject of boat failures this post say all that needs to be said, wise words from a wise man.

[scottdog007]

I wonder how many people would have got hurt if their Burn hadn't buckled! I'm assuming it is like the crumpled zone for the car, designed so the boat takes the impact, and your legs and body do not.

My friend really bashed his boat up badly, but the dents and buckling came out a treat. But I have to agree if you have room (short legs like me) then put an airbag in the front. If you boat goes wandering down the river water will not get into the front area if the bag is there.

Oops just realized I went away from your question.

[kayakclive]

Thanks all
Now I've searched the forum for threads about Burns I suppose 2 reshaped noses in 6 years isn't bad especialy as ive been uping my game in the last 3 years.
I did put an air bag in the front since the first dent (better late than never).
Has anyone paddled a New Mamba yet?

[Performance Kayaks]

Has anyone paddled a New Mamba yet?

Yup, 8.1 and 8.6. Much better than the Burn 2010, in my opinion. It is faster, more manoeuvrable and less edgy. Unless, of course, you want your creeker to handle like a playboat on the edges.

[Big Henry]

The majority of car accidents happen within 10 miles of your house = you should avoid driving in this dangerous zone

So if I move 10 miles away from my house and live there I'll be safer?

[Jim]

The majority of car accidents happen within 10 miles of your house = you should avoid driving in this dangerous zone

So if I move 10 miles away from my house and live there I'll be safer?

The only way to ensure stuff can't kill you, is to be already dead.

[alexpethybridge]

Something once told to me by a US Navy pilot - "When in a fighter aircraft, the ground has a kill probability of 1.0"

[zetkayakuk]

Alternatively you could look at a Zet Raptor. The design of the new Mamba is based on the Zet Raptor although they have been unable to better it.

Compared to the new Mamba the Raptor is faster, lighter, stronger, cheaper and has a better warranty.

Both the Mamba and Raptor are better than a Burn. Although, with all these boats, you'd be well advised to demo them first.

[Adrian Cooper]

The design of the new Mamba is based on the Zet Raptor

Rather a bold statement considering the credentials of the Dagger designers.

[Philip Mitchell]

I think saying that a Raptor is better than a Burn is a little bit harsh.

I had a burn and have just bought a Raptor. Yes the raptor is better IMO but the burn is still good. For example the Burn Carves into eddy's better and faster due to its sharp front rail, it boof's a little easier due to its length shorter length and is also more playful due to its hull and rails.

However the Zet is so much faster and smoother and keeps its speed when punching and riding over stoppers. The Zet also has more volume (than the M burn) and therefor rides abit higher out the water. To add to this the Zet is much lighter (about 2kg) and it is cheaper with a good warranty. The plastic on the Zets also seems to be stronger, it has really tough nose and doesn't seem as prone to cracking under the seat unlike Pyranha. However some of the outfitting in the Zet is not the most durable (ie the thigh braces held in with Velcro.)

The Zet suits my style of paddling better and the rivers I'm doing and want to do however depending what you are going to be paddling in the future the Burn may suit you better

I cannot speak for the New Mamba having only paddled it once at HPP.

Phil

[morsey]

Faster = Subjective.

Would be interesting to set up a test rig and assess the different boats with different loads, over a measured distance with measured power input. It is not hard to estimate that for boats of similar water length, width and hull profile that the speed differential should not be massively different! With different profiles be they flat hulls, V hulls, trihedral hulls or round hulls, you can expect differences between boats of similar length and width, but even then the differences are unlikely to be massive!

[morsey]

Instead of front air bags, I put the footrest at full length and add as much foam (filling the entire inner profile) as possible to create the correct length. Then you end up with impact protection and floatation in one.

[scottdog007]

Faster = Subjective.

Would be interesting to set up a test rig and assess the different boats with different loads, over a measured distance with measured power input..................

We need kayaker Stig, some say that his b.........

[Simon Westgarth]

Alternatively you could look at a Zet Raptor. The design of the new Mamba is based on the Zet Raptor although they have been unable to better it.

WTF, go over to the Products & Media to post this kind of nonsense, especially when you have a commercial agenda.

Compared to the new Mamba the Raptor is faster, lighter, stronger, cheaper and has a better warranty.

The new Mamba is based on 2 years of development, from the highly successful platform of the original Mamba, which kept selling for 9 years, available in 3 sizes and distributed across the world. I do not think the Raptor is faster than the new Mamba; lighter, hmm everyone advertises the boats at about the same weight; stronger, with the new Mamba made in the UK at Dagger Europe, it's highly unlikely to be stronger and cheaper well, they are listed at the same price across Europe; better warranty, 3 or 5 years is pretty good either way.

Both the Mamba and Raptor are better than a Burn. Although, with all these boats, you'd be well advised to demo them first.

The popularity of the Burn speaks for itself, easy to use and good to go, if a bit soft on precision when pushed on harder stuff, the Raptor, tracks great until it does not, then it might get interesting for the passenger, the new Mamba, more creeky than the first version with softer edges, so makes for less sharp turns on slalom style lines.

[Strad]

Hi Ive had a couple of Burns over the last 6 years but I have noticed in the last year quite a few Burns have had the noses reshaped easily mine included (once at CTs a month ago and once last week in Corsica on the Golo).

1. Is it a common thing for Burns to reshape the nose & do Pyranha know and are they sorting it out?

Surely the best path is not to paddle into things - then you can paddle any boat??? Try paddling a glass slalom boat for a year or two so that you get in the habit of missing the rocks (I know they have a habit of jumping out in front of you but they are best dodged)...

:-)

[Performance Kayaks]

cheaper

I've just looked at the Raptor on the UK site and it is £899 RRP. I'm not sure it is worth quibbling over 95p against a New Mamba Creeker really, but it is actually £50 more than the New Mamba WW.

You do, however, have to pay an extra £13 to have Security Screws hat are standard on Dagger kayaks. So ironically, the Zet Raptor is more expensive than the New Mamba.

[Dan Toward]

Alternatively you could look at a Zet Raptor. The design of the new Mamba is based on the Zet Raptor although they have been unable to better it.

Compared to the new Mamba the Raptor is faster, lighter, stronger, cheaper and has a better warranty.

Both the Mamba and Raptor are better than a Burn. Although, with all these boats, you'd be well advised to demo them first.

Some very bold statements there. No doubt the Zet Raptor is a fantastic boat in the right hands but
id say let the boat and the company speak for itself.

[kayakclive]

Thanks everyone for your thoughts some interesting ones in there!

1 I'm going to get my Burn repaired as I cant afford a new boat just yet.
2 I've put my house up for sale and am moving 11 miles away just to be safe!!!! ;-)
3 I'll test drive the new Mamba and Raptor (fittings do seem a bit naff in the Zet but you do get free air bags, yippie).
4 I'll buy some stealth rock goggles.

Thanks Clive

See you on the water (if you make it past 10miles of your house).

[mantamx]

I have a new mamba (L); it has been to corsica and has found itself hitting a few stones/walls (no fault of my own of course), at quite some speed several times (albeit not off significant drops), with a 105kg paddler +gear inside :). one particularly bad hit did generate a hardly perceptible small 'dent' (more like a slight misshaping of the curvature), which subsequently corrected itself under sun. also landed on some stones on the bottom, all good. so in my experience the new boat is pretty strong indeed.
'bad 'points so far: all 4 foam blocks used for hull reinforcement (around the seat) came off within days (looks like poor glue to me but was not too hard to glue back in), one of the seat back support straps tore off (hopefully will be replaced by D under warranty).. but considering the usage, by and large it has been very good and I really enjoy paddling it.

[ianletton]

...I suppose my question is in 2 parts really

1. Is it a common thing for Burns to reshape the nose & do Pyranha know and are they sorting it out?

2. Has anyone got a New Mamba and what is it to paddle, is the nose strong?

1. My theory for the reason you see it as a "common" thing to happen, is because Pyranha have such a big share of the market. They are probably the biggest selling kayak manufacturer in the UK and therefore because there are a higher number of boats in use, the chances of seeing more broken ones is higher.
Personally, I doubt that there is much difference in the strength of the plastic of all the current boats on the market.
If you hit a rock head on in any boat, the boat is going to come off worse. Sometimes that is a good thing as it will protect your ankles.

2. The Mamba is a good boat. But then again, they are all good boats. It just depends on your preference. What is good for one person, will be awful for another. I think that's pretty much the same thing with everything in life.

You have mentioned that you plan to repair your boat and keep going. That's not a bad idea. I repaired my boat last year after putting a rather large gash in it and it held up for quite some time and more abuse. Nothing wrong with a broken boat.

When the time comes to buy a new one, ask your boating friends what they think of their boats, see if you can borrow it for a day, demo some boats from a shop and try and increase the amount of boats you try. This will help give you an understanding of what it is you are looking for and what suits your needs.

Happy paddling

Ian

P.s. My only suggestion would be to try and support the UK market by buying something home grown!

[alexpethybridge]

I used to paddle a Burn the club had, I quite liked it, especially the flatter hull and long rails. When it broke I looked at getting a new boat and the biggest piece of advice I can give you is demo, and demo, and demo again. Over 4 months I paddled most big water boats by every manufacturer before settling on my current boat, a ZET Raptor. At this point I must disagree entirely with Mr Westgarth but urge you to remember this is only my opinion and what works for me may not work for you.

I found the Mamba to be... lifeless, it wallowed when I tried to put the power down, it didn't resurface evenly, it didn't move across eddy lines well, I was quite disappointed. I also found the outfitting a pain to fix when I had problems. By the end of my second day of demoing it I could wait to get out of it.

After demoing boats I came down to the Dagger Nomad and the ZET Raptor. I went to CIWW and did exactly the same thing in boat boat to see which one I fitted best in, capsized in the same holes, aimed for the same eddies etc. I liked the Nomad for its predictability in resurfacing, for the ease of flicking it into eddies and for its step out pillar. The first two things I had expected to find with the Mamba and didn't. I liked the Raptor for its handling (I prefer it bit of an edge) and for its speed, I think it is noticeably faster than anything else I have paddled (apparently the Shiva is fast as well, it was the only big water boat I didn't demo). In the end I chose the Raptor because I found it easier to get out of a hole in, I got a better price on it than for the Nomad and it came in red.
After week in Scotland I am sure I made the right choice, I have found it faster than anything else I've paddled. The outfitting is spartan but everything does the job perfectly, the elastic around the front buoyancy stretches to accommodate a water bottle or throwline, there's easy access to the back of the boat, and the backband and footblock are bombproof. I cocked up the line slightly on the second G5 on the Orchy (amazingly it had medium-high flows) and rammed the boat into a rock half way down. Result, a bruised pride, a slightly bent footblock (probably saved my ankles) and a flattening of the left corner on the nose (not really a proper dent) that popped out in the sun. Now the only way you can tell it happened are the scratches.

To round off, I think if you like your Burn you'll be disappointed in the Mamba, when you decide to get a new boat what you want to do with it will decide what demo but if you want a boat for charging down the scary stuff then the Raptor gets my vote.

[mantamx]

"P.s. My only suggestion would be to try and support the UK market by buying something home grown!" now that dagger is manufactured in the UK, there is much less difference in term of positive impact for the economy..yes, 'profit margin' and 'contribution to R&D' is (presumably) still repatriated, but the jobs/salaries etc are here...

[Bruce Jolliffe]

Although it is slightly off topic - the OP asked about Burn v Mamba, I think it only fair to present a balanced view of the much touted Raptor on this thread. I've been paddling a second hand one for about a month and a half. It is fast, it is fun and it does the job.

Until you ram it into pin and apply rope trick wizardry to extract it. The plastic is fine, so the boat has not been compromised, but to be honest the rescue bars are made of aluminium (or an alloy of), that is a very maleable metal and they bent under force.

Maybe it is not a bad thing, the plastic was ok,they did not come out, the screw mounts were still sound, but I can't help feeling they need to invest in making something a bit more robust for their 'Bombproof' Creekboat.

[Simon Westgarth]

At this point I must disagree entirely with Mr Westgarth

What with all I said? Any thing in particular?

[alexpethybridge]

At this point I must disagree entirely with Mr Westgarth

What with all I said? Any thing in particular?

WTF, go over to the Products & Media to post this kind of nonsense, especially when you have a commercial agenda.

Agree, I don't think the design of the mamba is the same as the Raptor.

The new Mamba is based on 2 years of development, from the highly successful platform of the original Mamba, which kept selling for 9 years, available in 3 sizes and distributed across the world. I do not think the Raptor is faster than the new Mamba; lighter, hmm everyone advertises the boats at about the same weight; stronger, with the new Mamba made in the UK at Dagger Europe, it's highly unlikely to be stronger and cheaper well, they are listed at the same price across Europe; better warranty, 3 or 5 years is pretty good either way.

Disagree, I believe the Raptor is significantly faster than the mamba, the Raptor feels like the lightest boat I demoed but there probably isn't much in it, I think the Raptor is stronger, it felt more solid when I cocked things up and hit it into walls - rather unscientific and subjective though. I managed to purchase my Raptor for a cheaper price than I could get my hands on a Mamba, I don't set much stock with kayak retail prices as I don't know anyone who has purchased a new boat for its full retail price. It does have a better warranty - the increase from 3 years with the mamba to 5 years with the Raptor is 60%, if offered you £1,095 or £1825 I suspect you wouldn't say its pretty good either way.

The popularity of the Burn speaks for itself, easy to use and good to go, if a bit soft on precision when pushed on harder stuff, the Raptor, tracks great until it does not, then it might get interesting for the passenger, the new Mamba, more creeky than the first version with softer edges, so makes for less sharp turns on slalom style lines.

Not really sure I understand this point, "the Raptor tracks great until it does not", I've not had an issue with the tracking of my Raptor. I also believe that if you are after a creeking boat than the Raptor is better than the Mamba, as it has even softer edges and I found much more predictable. I do agree though that neither boat would win you a medal in the Olympic Slalom. :)

[Simon Westgarth]

Disagree, I believe the Raptor is significantly faster than the mamba, the Raptor feels like the lightest boat I demoed but there probably isn't much in it, I think the Raptor is stronger, it felt more solid when I cocked things up and hit it into walls - rather unscientific and subjective though. I managed to purchase my Raptor for a cheaper price than I could get my hands on a Mamba, I don't set much stock with kayak retail prices as I don't know anyone who has purchased a new boat for its full retail price. It does have a better warranty - the increase from 3 years with the mamba to 5 years with the Raptor is 60%, if offered you £1,095 or £1825 I suspect you wouldn't say its pretty good either way.

Hmmmm, the short reply is subjective, subjective and subjective. Both boats are fast, I am suspecting that you were in the Mamba 8.1, which of course is shorter than the Raptor more like the Velco in size and length. In terms of boat pricing, it's competitive out there, and everyone is looking for a deal. I'll be impressed if anyone gets more than 200 days out of a creek boat, creeking whether the manufacturer offers a 3 or 5 years warranty.

Not really sure I understand this point, "the Raptor tracks great until it does not", I've not had an issue with the tracking of my Raptor.

All in good time, you'll know all about it, especially on Class V.