Creekboats, a requirement or not?

[Kayak-Bloke]

Burn is definitely in creek boat territory. If it's not in it it's on the border waiting to get in....

If you want to get away from where you are now (as per your original post) go with one of the other options above.

I have paddled an Axiom and loved it. Slicey, fast and surfed well.
Never paddled a Z.One there can't be much in it between the Axiom and the Z.one.
CKUK mag voted Axiom boat of year...?

Fun runner. Looks great not managed to paddle one yet but I love how comfy Jacksons are.
Jackson Fun. I have a Fun I have paddled the Mellte in it (twice) and the Afan at a very good level which included some interesting boat chasing. You wouldn't want to start slouching but it handles grade 3/4 really well. Not sure I'd choose it to do the Upper Dart but then I'm an intermediate, mortal, paddler that needs lots of volume under me for the hard stuff!

You're welcome to jump in my Fun and take it for a spin if you're ever down at CIWW.

I would agree that less volume does mean more fun.
swapping from a creek boat to something smaller and with less volume will improve your paddling but also requires a different kind of paddling. Creek boats need driving about hard and little boats need finesse.

[SimonMW]

But not everyone has the space nor inclination...so the axiom genre is probably the best route here for a single boat

It seems like the specialisation of boats has made things a bit more inaccessible to beginners, and expensive. I'm pretty confident I could learn to loop a playboat etc, but I am still getting basics of general kayaking down. I don't like to do bits of stuff, but would rather get the raw basics down to the point of being as perfect as possible. That goes for everything right down to the common all garden forward stroke. The biomechanics is one of the things that interests me about kayaking in the first place.

I've been paddling for around 1.5 years and only ever owned one boat, though I used a few in the initial coaching I took. I'm still not owning G3. In fact I could even say that I'm not owning G2 since I can't always go to or do exactly what I want to do when I want to every single time that I want to.

When we ran the Upper Dart it was good fun and I didn't make any huge cockups (well apart from during my usual 30 min warm up period! ;-) ). However if we take somewhere like the upper graveyard on the T, when it comes to really accurate eddy hopping, confidence in paddling across the flow, judging my speed and angle in a fast current or drop to make an eddy etc, I still have a long way to go.

I think my style of paddling, and the way I am headed is far more 'slalom' style anyway. I like the idea of being able to graciously use the current for smooth eddy hopping and ferries. I like the technical side of paddling. The timing of strokes in wave trains, positioning etc. I'm not so much into crashing about in a stopper, although I know I need to do more of that because it does bring benefits. But a boat like the Axiom allows nice front surfing, and from what I have seen good flat spins etc. It isn't a playboat by any stretch, but for my level it offers some degree of challenge for me, and some scope for expansion.

I can't afford two boats, and my garage doesn't really have room for two anyway, let alone three. One thing is for sure though, owning a creekboat as the only boat restricts surf practice potential and many other aspects, and although Joules, you have humorously seen me back end it on that feature at the end of Serpents it isn't really designed for tail squirting!

Ideally yes, three boats would seem ideal. But a boat that is sporty' in general is going to be way more fun all round. Plus it will be a different experience. I can get another creekboat when I have the money and when I start doing impressions of Evan Garcia.

Creek boats need driving about hard and little boats need finesse.

If that is the case, then I am even more convinced that I should go for something like an Axiom or Z:one.

[Dinoboy]

I agree with you entirely Jim creekboats are terrible at downriver moves, boring tubs all of them.

While your learning a long playboat or river runner is probably better than a full on creekboat. Something like the axiom will be fun but you will actually learn to drive the boat about like you will need to do once you want to paddle a creekboat on harder whitewater.

Those who learn to paddle whitewater in really short playboats may survive on lots of things but will struggle when they swap to a full sized boat and realize they actually have to paddle forwards at some point rather than just roll and steer.

Also its always hilarious to here the crazy talk about planing hulled creek boats being more suitable for uk rivers. Burns, Mamba's etc excel on big volume which we don't have much off. They don't deal with rocks anywhere near as well as other rounder creek boats. Nomad's etc are far more suited to the rocky low volume rivers we get over here.

[morsey]

It is not just massive water where you can play in creek boats, plenty of medium volume class three rivers give you waves to play on. The old Small mamba was an ace river play machine, just the back end let it down on harder water. A new mamba would make my Nomad redundant after a short period I suspect, mostly because there is a size option between the small and large Nomad.

There is no right and wrong answer in the displacement versus flat hull for the majority of paddlers, exponents of both show time and again that the paddlers are the main limiting factor. If you are doing big falls then you get a margin for error by having rocker from front to back without a break, but that comes at the price of tracking. If you are not hoofing fifty footers all the time then flat hull and more pronounced edges are not going to be such a restrictive factor, and if you boof with your weight forwards and control your boat in the air then it becomes less of an issue.

Splats, rock wheels and the like is more about technique than the boat, flat hulled play boats, Creekers, flat hulled creekers all seem pretty adept in the right hands. With play boats you notice pretty soon that the performance of the hull is affected detrimentally by smearing rocks, and the same will happen with flat bottom Creekers, and river boats.

What does a boat like an Axiom give you that a Mamba does not? Reduced deck volume. The hulls are both agile and happy to play or go, the decks behave very differently once the boat is taken off flat and an edge applied. You can smash the front deck much easier on the Axiom, making blunts and cartwheels easier to initiate. You can edge and hold easily to engage the middle section of the hull to flare. And the back deck allows you to take the boat off axis both ways, outside edge for eddy crossing and inside edge for squirting is fluid and controlled. With a Mamba the rear end stalls easily while trying to sink the stern, even with the smaller old rear deck!

Zone/Burn, Axiom/Mamba, all good boats, the difference is size, feel, comfort etc... All these areas you have to paddle to be able to make a decision, and if possible spend time adjusting the trim to get the correct weight point in each boat (for me that involves trying four boats in two different sizes, and events like Dart Adventure Paddlers and CIWW Paddle Fest are excellent for trying multiple boats). Personally I think the good Jackson boats are the fun and Star, the fun runner looks too eighties for my liking! And, does not seem to have the progression of design that other river runners have.

I can't chose between getting and Axiom or a Mamba at the mo, might end up ditching my Nomad and getting both. But I know that once my arms are working again I'll want a play boat for the warm summer play sessions. Decisions, decisions!

GT's are pretty cheap in comparison to brand new designs, they lack the sharpness of the edge of the Axiom, but are still pretty good all rounders.

[Jim]

2. 'Summer quirt boat like s6/s8 (cheap)...perfect for the G3 playspots like the T, Dee & surf a treat (sea and rivers)

I currently have a dilemna with my S6....brilliant surf boat but difficult in doing a river with Grade 4 rapids, looking at trying a LL C125 as a secondary boat.

Let us know how you find it, half thinking about hiring one of the LL CR boats for the Grand Canyon next year because 200 miles in my Session+ will probably kill my knees and ankles. It needs to wavewheel relatively easily, I used an X last time and it took a bit of work but I was flatwheeling it after a few days, the only issue was that the thigh grips were too aggressive on my knees.

[Allenkayak]

It all depends on what you do and what you like, but I'd say mostly no. I paddle a Wavesport Diesel 80, which is more river runner than creeker, but only just, but this covers all the bases that I need.

As to one boat that does it all, then the Axiom and Z One really do fit the bill. Having said that the Pyranha Recoil is a very versatile boat, also the older boats like the Dagger GT, RPM and Pyranha Inazone still have something to offer.

Just go out and paddle everything you can, but remember one boat is always going to be a compramise if you want to use it for different things.

[SimonMW]

GT's are pretty cheap in comparison to brand new designs, they lack the sharpness of the edge of the Axiom, but are still pretty good all rounders.

I tried a GTX the other week. It felt nice, but a bit lifeless. It was also very strange to roll due to it's width. Kind of felt like raising the Titanic!

Just go out and paddle everything you can, but remember one boat is always going to be a compramise if you want to use it for different things.

Yeah, for the moment though I think a more all round boat that has a bit more scope than an out and out creeker would be my best choice. Last year my time was distributed between the Dee, Tryweryn, Usk Mill Falls (countless times!), Usk Abrebran to Brecon, Upper Wye, Middle Wye, CIWW and HPP, and then a trip on the Upper Dart earlier this year. I'm not sure when I'll be running anything much more difficult, and I certainly can't see myself going on any big Scottish rivers anytime soon.

I'd like to run the Aberglaslyn Gorge at some point, but I would presume at most sensible levels an Axiom would be fine?

[Tuomas]

Pat Keller playing his way down the Green River (in axiom?). One point of view to consider.

https://vimeo.com/39229191

[sully-g]

I couldn't help but see someone said necky rip.... I understand necky used to make a decent boat called the rip however... they now offer this as the Rip


I am agreeing with the Axiom comments thus far - fast, slicey, playful with plenty of volume in the bow.

[Simon Westgarth]

I hear the Axiom is difficult to boof, but I suppose that's a small compromise to make for the other capabilities.

the Axiom, is there enough room for any gear? Example if I wanted to put a DSLR in an Ocoee watershed bag?

The Axiom boof's well enough, and there is more enough for your Ocoee Watershed Bag. I normal position the bag between my legs, DSLR and all.
[b]http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5211/5387859132_9e4f9a405e_z.jpg[b]

I have had the new Mamba on the water for the last month, it's smoother than the Axiom through the transitions, and does not loss it's tracking when it gets a bit steep. The short boat option like CR or Recoil, is all fine, but neither are any good at most things other than being slow, the Loki will at least give you boat speed and front surfing' fun.

[PeterG89]

I happen to have a fiend who was thinking of selling a detox.

My only gripe with it is it weighs a ton!

[Simon Westgarth]

The Axiom boof's well enough,

[Jim]

The short boat option like CR or Recoil, is all fine, but neither are any good at most things other than being slow, the Loki will at least give you boat speed and front surfing' fun.

Looks like I'll be taking a playboat then, I wonder if I can lose enough weight to get back in the Glide?

[purelandexpeditions.com]

Re: Creekboats, a requirement or not?

Postby Tuomas » Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:07 pm
Pat Keller playing his way down the Green River (in axiom?). One point of view to consider.

https://vimeo.com/39229191

Pat is in an RPM.

[SimonMW]

Ok, another spanner in the works, would a boat like the Dagger Juice 6.9 still be valid as a good all rounder? Looking at some of the specs the Axiom falls around an awkward weight range for me. I checked my weight and I seem to be around the 60kg mark with gear. The Axiom 8.0 is rated at 68kg tops, and the 8.5 is a min of 58kg. So that makes the decision more difficult, especially if I went with an 8.0 and put on weight!

[Strad]

Ok, another spanner in the works, would a boat like the Dagger Juice 6.9 still be valid as a good all rounder? Looking at some of the specs the Axiom falls around an awkward weight range for me. I checked my weight and I seem to be around the 60kg mark with gear. The Axiom 8.0 is rated at 68kg tops, and the 8.5 is a min of 58kg. So that makes the decision more difficult, especially if I went with an 8.0 and put on weight!

I paddle a juice 7.1 as an all rounder and love it - that said I'm at top end of the weight range and size for the 7.1 - I use no footrest and it's pretty playful.

[Simon Westgarth]

Ok, another spanner in the works, would a boat like the Dagger Juice 6.9 still be valid as a good all rounder? Looking at some of the specs the Axiom falls around an awkward weight range for me. I checked my weight and I seem to be around the 60kg mark with gear. The Axiom 8.0 is rated at 68kg tops, and the 8.5 is a min of 58kg. So that makes the decision more difficult, especially if I went with an 8.0 and put on weight!

Those ranges, like most manufactures are for guidance and not at all absolute, the Axiom 8.5 with some seat pads will be grand for you. The 8.0 is really ideal for 50kg and significantly smaller than the 8.5.

[morsey]

Being 70Kg and having paddled both 8.0 and 8.5 I'd say you should try them both and not rule out either until you've checked yourself. It is pretty close, 50kg is an ideal weight for the small boat, but if I weighed 60Kg I'd go for the smaller version, based on the way they both felt for my size. If I get an 8.5 I know I am likely to squash the front deck for sure (but then I have modified lots of my boats to tweak a little volume here and there and to increase foot room). But equally you might prefer the 8.5! :-)

[Joel Perkin]

In my opinion I don't think that you need a creeker for any of the white water you will find in the UK (most of it anyway). I paddle a Wavesport D75 and my main paddling buddy Paddles a Wavesport D65, and they are brilliant. I feel comfortable on Grd 4 and I've used it on Grd 5 without a problem either. It is considered a creekboat by some, but I'd disagree. When I guide groups down easy Grd 2 I can have alot of fun in it, due to it's really playful hull. I'd recommend it no end. Just to give you a taste heres a list of rivers I've paddled and my mate (D65 have paddled.)

-Tavy
-Tamar
-Lower Walkham
-Upper Dart (in all conditions)
-Loop
-Middle Tavy (all conditions)
-Tavy Cleave (Spate)
-Upper Walkham
-Upper Plym
-Erme
-East Lyn
-East Okement

[jonh1140]

So long as you don't mind the occasional trashing then a playboat is by far the best option to go for as you develop your kayaking. If you learn in a creeker you get a very lazy paddling style as you can just float down pretty much anything. A playboat will punish bad technique at the first oppertunity so you learn very fast! I find them much more manouverable and easier to boof, however you will find you have to paddle hard to punch holes which the creekers wouldn't even notice (this does make easier rivers a lot more exciting though!). Playboats are also a lot less faff to rescue in the event that you do swim. The one thing that does scare me about playboats is a vertical pin, as there isn't much to protect your ankles, but at your stage you shouldn't be doing anything with serious pinning potential anyway.

Bottom line is that so long as you don't mind a steeper learning curve, a decent playboat is a great one boat solution. There isn't much (sane) stuff in the UK which you could do in a creek boat and not in a playboat, and with a playboat you also get the chance to try out surfing and freestyle. I have been paddling for a year and a half with a LL biscuit 55 and I love it! It surfs really well and it's still stable enough for me to run the odd grade 5 in it.

p.s. don't bother buying a boat new. you can get some really decent boats much cheaper on the second hand market - my biscuit cost me £360(including a spraydeck) and I put more scratches in it in one river run than the previous owner had put in it all the time he had it.

[Croft]

What about the safety aspect?

Surely a creek boat is safer in technical white water owing to the fact that is spends more time on the surface rather than below it - thus lessening the risk of entrapment, pins or bottom pins. Certainly seem to hear of a lot less of this sort of carnage since the decline in the fashion of using play boats for running creeky rivers.

However, as always it's a compromise and there is no perfect solution and the fact that, in big water, a play boat might go under the soup, rather than being definitively stopped by it, is perhaps a safety consideration that works in the opposite direction.

[Tuomas]

I would say it's not so easy to say that a creek boat encourages lazy paddling style. Surely, keeping the balance is more challenging especially in big water in playboat. When it comes to actually steering the boat the creek boat needs more effort and when not under control maybe spins in unwanted direction. With short playboat it is easy just to keep pointing the bow to desired direction with a bit of sweep strokes. Also with a longer boat it comes to of importance to actually drive the boat thru the lines than just floating and steering.

@Croft: My rule of thumb is to have big boat for low volume and small boat for big water.

[Scumbag_Scout]

I just spent 3 weeks paddling the Grand Canyon in the Jackson Fun Runner, loved it! I've written a bit of a review about the boat. In short.....

Very Fast
Boofs well
Surfs great
Turns fast
Stable
Very comfy.....

I'll post the longer review later when I've finished writing it....

[Scumbag_Scout]

And as promised...

http://worldkayakblogs.com/mydeckpopped/2012/04/24/jackson-fun-runner-in-the-grand-canyon/

[Tom_Laws]

http://vimeo.com/40877861

Watch out for Daz and his Corsica - pre-boof, creekboats are not needed

[Barny P]

[DaveBland]

Proper* creeks are best with a creekboat unless you are a complete hero.
Sure people paddled stuff in older design boats completely fine, but ultimately the advances in boat design are about safety and I like being safe.

*by proper in mean like the stuff in that cool Aber Uni vid http://vimeo.com/40594442

[Tom_Laws]

Proper* creeks are best with a creekboat unless you are a complete hero.

We all know that Daz is a proper hero.


I agree with you Dave, also, I'm coming to BC for August....

[Kyle F]

I can understand the question your asking and after reading through the comments there is a lot of good information, at the end of the day paddle what you find comfortable not what people think you should be paddling.

I just like to say I love my playboat (big dog Kaos) on most of the stuff I do though over the winter I stole the girlfriends wavesport D65 the older shape diesel which they just renamed. It was fantastic really playful though at the same time pretty comforting and stable when things got pushier on the (upper dart and erme) it has a playful hull that is good for surfing and spin happily might be worth a look, if you want something with a bit more volume for harder runs.

Hope this is helpful for you and happy boating

Kyle F

[purelandexpeditions.com]

Haha I am pre boof. No hero but retro. Remember the Corsica was a playboat! Lack of out fitting makes it fun!

D