Setting the clock backwards on the Dart?

[morsey]

Gene17's position

I wasn't really trying to ascertain your company viewpoint, plus to your credit you have always been quite clear about your views. It was more the fact that for each day in winter that you take a group on the Upper when the levels are below the ledge, or when walking into the East Lyn with the gauge reading below red, what occurs is no doubt a quality day on the river, where you are able to deliver a high end course. And, that sets a benchmark of the quality of available paddling in low levels. Now I understand your position is that you would not want confrontation and hence do not paddle far passed the start of the fishing open season in the UK. But that is not a decision based on the possibility of good paddling, it is based on complete compromise of paddlers and zero compromise by anglers. That position, no matter how much you say the situation has improved, has not changed. The close season is not at the control of anglers, it is forced upon them because they over fish and destroy fish stocks, and very importantly it has nothing to do with paddlers. And, for those paddlers who are not fortunate to spend three quarters of the year outside of the UK, clubs/schools/outdoor centres, there is very little incentive to compromise three seasons of paddling when conditions exist to sustain paddling with no environmental impact.

Anglers defence of exclusive use of rivers has no standing in any legal format in the UK. Their Environmental claims are not backed up by fact or practise. Following verbal discussion with the EA for the river Wye:

I asked directly what the actual number of incidents of bye-law breaches by canoeists was. The answer, over the passed five years; "three or four". Several thousand canoeists a year and the "problems" are less than one tenth of one percent!

The By-law breaches are minor indiscretions, they do not even register on the "environmental" scale. And there is no suggestion that those figures are not representative of all other rivers. Yes the Dart is a different type of river but there has been zero environmental damage caused across all rivers, including the entire period that Canoe Wales have stepped back from agreements.


It is quite simple: If DFA want to make up restrictions then that should be an end to negotiation. 365 days paddling nothing less. If Anglers feel hard done by about their close season they can take that up with the EA/DEFRA, it is no reason to think that they can have three seasons exclusive use of rivers whilst everyone else makes do with one.

[twopigs]

Gene17's position

I wasn't really trying to ascertain your company viewpoint, plus to your credit you have always been quite clear about your views. It was more the fact that for each day in winter that you take a group on the Upper when the levels are below the ledge, or when walking into the East Lyn with the gauge reading below red, what occurs is no doubt a quality day on the river, where you are able to deliver a high end course. And, that sets a benchmark of the quality of available paddling in low levels. Now I understand your position is that you would not want confrontation and hence do not paddle far passed the start of the fishing open season in the UK. But that is not a decision based on the possibility of good paddling, it is based on complete compromise of paddlers and zero compromise by anglers.

I'm sure Simon's position is based on the fact that he can travel to places where he can get better water and thus offer an even better quality day on the river......

I don't bother with the Dart in the summer because I never find out when there is water available until it happens.

[morsey]

EA gauges, Weather stations, Weather predictions, Dart Facebook page info from locals, all serve to provide pretty accurate means of judging the water levels.

[morsey]

I'm sure Simon's position is based on the fact that he can travel to places where he can get better water and thus offer an even better quality day on the river......

That would follow if providers moved in direct relation to the water, they move in relation to the dates they sell courses in the various locations. Once in a location they stay put and make do with the water levels. And then, for example; is walking into a short section of the Soana any better than walking into the East Lyn gorge? I haven't and wouldn't do either, but it does not diminish the quality of the paddling at either location. The idea that there are always perfect levels outside of the UK is quite mistaken, but that is a bit of a tangent. Canoeing will always be about changing levels, aside from dam controlled rivers the rainfall always causes levels to be varied. You can have high water in summer and low water in winter and both are quality conditions. I love massive volume rivers, it does not mean that I consider everything else as not being quality. UK Wintertime demonstrates that paddlers want to paddle in all levels, not just spate/high water, there is no reason to restrict that use the rest of the year.

[Mark Allen]

Well today was quite obvious that most people DO still stick to the "so called season dates" - ie the last official weekend and the levels are ridiciously low, proberly 20 inches belows the slab. The rapid at Newbridge hardly looked paddleable, yet the Dart was packed when I drove passed.

Now my opion is dont paddle when more than a few inches below the slab, but paddle at any time of the year when it is..... Does this not make sense???

[Dinoboy]

Ridiculously low? 20 inches below the slab is at least a solid medium. Anyone who says you need water to paddle down a river is an elitist sandbagger. If its barely possible to float then almost anyone will be able to get down any "rapid" they want to. This makes kayaking fair for everyone no matter how unskilled. Just because some macho he man locals only enjoy kayaking when it involves water as well as rocks dosen't mean that this is suitable for everyone.

[Randy Fandango]

Ridiculously low? 20 inches below the slab is at least a solid medium. Anyone who says you need water to paddle down a river is an elitist sandbagger. If its barely possible to float then almost anyone will be able to get down any "rapid" they want to. This makes kayaking fair for everyone no matter how unskilled. Just because some macho he man locals only enjoy kayaking when it involves water as well as rocks dosen't mean that this is suitable for everyone.

Ho ho.... :-)
Of course -- despite your "slight" tinge of sarcasm, you're words are actually about right (in principle).
While you and I probably wouldn't chose to paddle the Dart at such god-awful low levels (truth to tell the Loop is horrible scrapey-low in my opinion) -- why shouldn't others paddle it that low if they enjoy that sort if thing and are having no discernible environmental impact?
Giles

[morsey]

Now my opion is dont paddle when more than a few inches below the slab, but paddle at any time of the year when it is..... Does this not make sense???

I agree it makes sense, for all experienced class three or class four paddlers it will fit with their requirements when paddling the loop or upper. But, for those who are not at those levels the compromise is perhaps harder to bare! The thread about paddling the upper created by Daffers highlighted a target group of paddlers who benefit from paddling at lower levels. And from personal experience I can give upwards of thirty paddlers who would not be totally happy to get on the Upper with the level lapping the ledge. The volume of paddlers on the loop demonstrates that it is not all about full volume class four paddling, and when the river goes high those that would normally be happy on the loop end up searching for less intensive sections. The demograph of recreational paddlers covers everyone from flat water touring to gently moving water, through the lower and middle grades and upto the higher end whitewater, we should not automatically consider that all paddlers are class three/four weekend warriors!

As an extension of Mark's suggestion perhaps paddlers should, at lower levels, make use of the middle of the day, which I understand is not ideal for angling. This will allow 365 days paddling, at levels appropriate to all paddlers. I understand it is easier to use such a system on rivers where there is a more constant flow, however, once high water has raised and dropped the levels tend to hold a more predictable level (i.e. it is unlikely to drop a foot in an hour when low, more likely an inch over the course of a day). And there is sufficient info available now with the EA gauges online, combined with weather predictions and weather station monitoring info to make informed and quite accurate decisions. Local paddlers can then state what they feel is ideal levels, and those travelling can make decisions based on whether they will have quality paddling that suits them, without fear of condemnation. Local paddlers will of course have to forgo the right to shout at travelling paddlers, but hey, that can only be a good thing.


The points of discussion of any agreement should have been made available by BCU/CE to all paddlers. There should have been consultation in an open forum to allow the general view of recreational paddlers to be assessed. Without the information of the agreement being made available without a need for constant questions, and based on the previous intention to pander to the DFA requests, not consult paddlers, not fully represent paddlers or adopt the 365 day policy, I suspect that nothing more than a spate agreement that will not suit all paddlers is the only extension to the previous restrictive agreements. If that is the case, then as far as I am concerned it gets rejected, or ignored just as other restrictive agreements have been.

This will be the point where someone from BCU/CE steps in and gives us all the full facts of negotiations for the river Dart ...

[Dave Thomas]

Well today was quite obvious that most people DO still stick to the "so called season dates" - ie the last official weekend and the levels are ridiciously low, proberly 20 inches belows the slab. The rapid at Newbridge hardly looked paddleable, yet the Dart was packed when I drove passed.

Which day? We paddled the Loop on Sunday, on the basis that we had several people who hadn't seen the Loop/hadn't paddled it this 'season', and it was the last chance to be guaranteed free of 'hassle (doesn't preclude going again during the summer, but that would be more likely to be at slab+ levels). I would have said the level was 10-12 inches below the slab (although the Holne Park webcam 'calibration' is a bit out at such low levels , as it looked more like 20 inches on the gauge board!). We seemed to be pretty well the only group on the Loop (certainly the only car at the Country Park) although there were 2 - 3 groups on the Upper.

The river was certainly not 'exciting' at the level, and certain stretches/rapids were pretty well unrecognisable, but interestingly it was not significantly more bony than usual on several of the normal 'bump and scrape' stretches - the boulders which can catch one out just below the surface were well clear of the surface, but that just seemed to channel the water more, and it was surprisingly easy to pick a reasonably floatable line down most of the river. And the sun shone, it was a 'cags off for lunch' warm day, the wild daffodils were out, the water was gin-clear and sparkled and everyone enjoyed the trip for what it was. A quality day on the water! Oh, and beer and cream teas outside on the terrace at the Tavistock Inn at Poundsgate after the paddle went down rather nicely, as well!

[Mark Allen]

My point is : People clearly still do stick to the so called season date - that is all.

The rest is my opion on the matter...

[Ollie5]

That took me 30 minutes to read, still dont know if I can paddle without getting arrested :( ??

[Mark Allen]

That took me 30 minutes to read, still dont know if I can paddle without getting arrested :( ??

You and only you decide what you should do.

[Simon Westgarth]

That took me 30 minutes to read, still dont know if I can paddle without getting arrested :( ??

You can not be arrested for paddling. However here are to 2 extreme possibilities that may involve the law.

A, If you go and jump up and down on salmon reads at a certain time of year, November to February, and an EA Officer tells you not too, and you keep doing so, yes, you'll be arrested.

B, If you go paddling every day and access the river by walking through someone's land, and they have repeatedly told you not to walk across their land, they can man handle you off their land as you are trespassing, and they can get a court order to keep you away from their land.

If neither apply, and you are happy their is enough water and you'll enjoy your day out, why not get on. If you are going to upset and get abuse from no end of fishermen, and a popular fishing day or section, may be go elsewhere. No one can arrest you regardless.

[SimonMW]

they can man handle you off their land as you are trespassing

In fact they can't. They would be committing common assault by taking such action. Such are the peculiarities of our legal system. As far as I understand it you can only be accused of trespass if you are asked to leave and then refuse to do so, but they cannot use physical force to remove you unless it could be properly justified.

[jmmoxon]

Not sure if this helps, but underground explorers have similar issues:
http://www.28dayslater.co.uk/forums/sho ... hp?t=47513

Mike

[Mark Allen]

they can man handle you off their land as you are trespassing

In fact they can't. They would be committing common assault by taking such action. Such are the peculiarities of our legal system. As far as I understand it you can only be accused of trespass if you are asked to leave and then refuse to do so, but they cannot use physical force to remove you unless it could be properly justified.

The landower can use reasonable and approiate force to remove some one from there land, but you also have the right to protect you self!!!

[hardy]

Ollie5....paddle and be damned.Use a bit of common sense.

Manhandling!....You'd stand a better chance of getting knocked over by a bus.

[Mark R]

So...we're going to go back to Access 'Agreements' on the Dart. We heard it from Adam. Worth being concerned about?

[Strad]

So...we're going to go back to Access 'Agreements' on the Dart. We heard it from Adam. Worth being concerned about?

WIthout a doubt I think we should be concerned, but, given the wonderful communications from CE I don't feel I have enough info to really make a proper decision as to just how concerned, if the access agreement is 365 days per year with clauses for environmental reasons then possibly a little less of a problem, but the implication form the angling association was not to that effect.

[morsey]

Worth being concerned about?

Yes.

[Mark Allen]

Worth being concerned about?

Yes.

Yes indeed, I think..

[John Saunders]

So...we're going to go back to Access 'Agreements' on the Dart. We heard it from Adam.

Now confirmed on CE website (http://www.canoe-england.org.uk/waterways-and-environment/latest-news/):

South West Regional Development Team - Access to Rivers.
March 2012

For many years the South West Region and their Waterways & Environment Team has looked after the local issues and access arrangements on the rivers in the region. They have worked hard in negotiations in circumstances that can be quite demanding.

The Team has provided clarity and certainty of access to some of the rivers in the area for various times of year through a variety of access arrangements to include the River Dart.

The River Dart is one of the popular rivers for white water in England. The river rises high on Dartmoor as the Rivers East and West Dart with their confluence at Dartmeet. The most used section of is between Newbridge and Buckfastleigh , and provides much sport. It is a river where many canoeists first experienced white water on a natural upland river and continue to do so.

Canoe England is continuing the access arrangement on the Dart to make some provision for those canoeists requiring a greater certainty of access at particular times. The arrangement has seen some changes over time thanks to the work and perseverance of the volunteer Waterway & Environment Team. The need to register before using the river has been removed and access extended into mid March.

Other access arrangements in the South West include the rivers East Lyn, and Barle. Information is posted on the SW Region website and linked to the Canoe England website.
Access to the rivers in the south west provides a range of white water gradings for both coaching and general sport. For the local community the canoeing activity is recognised as bringing a much needed boost to the local economy outside the main holiday period.

[Mark Allen]

What a load of s**t..... Will they never a. Listen and b. Learn

[Mark R]

FFS.


Please take the time to politely spell out your view of what has been achieved by these negotiations - conducted on your behalf.

[Mark Allen]

FFS.


Please take the time to politely spell out your view of what has been achieved by these negotiations - conducted on your behalf.

Who are you referring to?

[Mark R]

Who are you referring to?

Anyone who has an opinion on this.


https://www.facebook.com/canoeengland?r ... noeengland

[Mark Allen]

Has anyone actually seen it? (the agreement?)

[Pete the kayaker]

Who are you referring to?

Anyone who has an opinion on this.


https://www.facebook.com/canoeengland?r ... noeengland

FWIW I've already spelt out my opinion on the BCU and it's current stance.

However, as regards this access agreement, arrangement or whatever it is called by the fools propogating it, it doesn't matter all that much to me. I will still paddle the Dart whenever I think it's in a condition that'll interest me.

However, these are the inevitable consequences of such piffle...

1. It will no doubt give some clowns carte-blanche to think they can try to f*ck-up my day on the river.

2. The people who will suffer most from this are those who paddle with clubs, some of whom will no doubt feel obligated only to paddle on the days the DFA 'graciously' allow.

What a croc of sh*t. Well done BCU!!!

[dougdew99]

yet another attempt to obtain information from the BCU. I am now pretty well certain that the BCU is not worth any further effort. They have given up on access to the 96% of water ways that are in dispute and have a new code word, "clarity" of access which means conforming to anglers and land owners demands. The anglers must be laughing themselves sick.

[Simon Westgarth]

As posted by myself on CE Facebook wall:

On http://www.canoe-england.org.uk/waterwa ... test-news/ under South West Regional Development Team - Access to Rivers. March 2012, the PR states the info is on BCUSW.org, but there is nothing there. We'd like to see the new Dart Access Agreement, where is it, please?

The devil is of course in the detail, and although I am slight concerned about what has been attempted, I'd like to see the actual agreement first.