The Twiss and Doe

[markayak]

I am heading over to the lakes this weekend and would like a run down the Twiss or the Doe. does anyone know how much water they need as the online guide proves inconclusive. also whats the chances they will be running this weekend?

regards

mark

[callwild]

They both go up and down like a yo Yo, within the hour so impossible to say.
Having said that its fairly damp at the moment so probably will be enough to go BUT as they don't need much and for a first trip down either you probably don't want much.
Main problem is getting them at the right level for you. Go look is the only way.

[jmmoxon]

Please note the rivers are in North Yorkshire.

Mike

[banzer]

Can I come? As I keep saying on these pages, the Doe is AWESOME! Different drops go at different levels, but the first couple and the last go at just about any level, and there's a path all the way alongside. Park at the top near Beezley Falls.

[markayak]

Of course you can banzer, send me a PM with your number and I will give you a call.

[DanH]

Count me in too Mark!

[Jonny Briggs]

The Ingleton waterfall company have put boulders at the usual parking spot at the top of the Doe (there'e a new cafe). However you could park higher up and paddle down or walk back to Beezley.

Jonny

[banzer]

When were you planning on going? Could maybe do Sat afternoon, but it's tight- family orders! I'd recommend three or four boaters for safety, I did it with two of us but we bottled out of the really tasty looking cauldron drop 1/3 of the way down, it didn't look easy to protect with one. (Or you could just strap on a pair and get your boof on.) Shame they've blocked the parking spot- they've obviously wised up to non-paying boaters.

[markayak]

Probably going to be sunday I think, as I am playing a gig on the saturday. Don't know who is up for it yet as my usual boating buddy lent his bollocks out and when returned they were in a very shrivelled and useless state.

[Poke]

Hmmm. I could possibly be persuaded...
Not run them before...
Inspected them once at a paddleable level, but my two paddling buddies weren't keen :-(
What's the forecast looking like (internet is going unbearably slowly today and refuses to load up pages containing more than about 3 pixels of graphics)

[markayak]

I am not really sure on levels. I will have a better idea tomorrow when I am in the lakes. It has been wet over there for a few days now so the ground should be pretty sodden. I think there is a little rain forecast over the next few days. Would be a pleasure to have you join us Tim

[DanH]

Weather forecast looks like it might be wet now and on Sunday... Doesn't sound like you need too much water though!

[markayak]

Can anyone that is available and wanting to paddle on sunday drop me a quick pm please so I know whether its worth me packing all my boating kit aswell as guitars etc.

[warren]

Pack ya boat mark
me and phill awaiting meet up details.

Warren

[dan da da]

Had a look at the Doe today. It had a good amount of water in it, so we ran away and did the Upper Swale instead. May be worth a look tomorrow though.

[NRB]

Dan (I asume)

What was the level on the Swale running at? We were thinking of Doe today was it un-runnablely high?

Cheers

[dan da da]

The Swale was on the minimum I'd say, plenty of flow going between drops though, and they all went.

The Doe, I wouldn't say it was unrunable. Beesley Falls and Snow Falls looked technical but good to go. Water was higher than the pictures on this site, a nice treacle colour, and the gorge section with the caldron drop (horrible!) was a very serious prospect so we decided to leave it, I'm not sure I'd do the whole thing at the level we saw it, some may but you'd certainly want some good safety.

Sorry I don't have any pictures, we looked quickly and came back. Spoke to a nice chap at the cafe after looking who said he wasn't sure on our 'legal position' and that his boss 'had seen paddlers off before' but was really friendly about it all and didn't charge us the ticket price for having a quick look.

Dan.

[markayak]

Had a great day today guys. Will get some pics n stuff up soon. Must do it again sometime.

[warren]

Yep realy enjoyed today .
Will defo have to do it again. When I buy a creek boat that is , so I dont have to walk the gorge.

[Poke]

Yeah. Quality day out guys. Cheers for suggesting it and getting the idea into my head!! Been wanting to run that one for years!

Spoke to a nice chap at the cafe after looking who said he wasn't sure on our 'legal position' and that his boss 'had seen paddlers off before' but was really friendly about it all and didn't charge us the ticket price for having a quick look.

Looks like you got lucky! We encountered a very different reception. We put on at the stepping stones at the top (so we didn't walk past the cafe), but the guy clocked us and was waiting for us below the first drop. Mark's girlfriend had come along (and did pay) and was watching/filming us and she got a huge earful from him about how we were OK to use the water, but it was private land and as soon as we stepped onto the side we'd have to pay!

One of the guys said we'd pay on our way back up which pacified him and he toddled off to man his post once more, little realising that kayaks don't travel upstream... Mwahahaha!

A couple more of the boating team's other halves appeared a bit later on and tried to walk down from the top. Once they saw the sign saying it cost £4.50 per person to walk the 3km back to Ingleton (just past the cafe), they decided better of it and instead of walking down bought a cuppa from the cafe. Once they started back towards the car, the same grumpy man stopped them and told them they needed to pay too. They politely explained that they'd seen how much it cost, decided against the walk and didn't even make it to the river. He said that he'd not seen that so they'd have to pay. They politely refused again, and headed back towards their car. He followed them for 300m back to the road, just to make sure they were sticking to their story. Really out of order!

[Notters]

This guy sounds a bit of a twat, So much so that it puts people of going to these rivers hence why they aren't paddled to much.
Its a real dam shame, as it sounds like a right hoot reading through the guide description.

[dan da da]

Looks like you got lucky! We encountered a very different reception.

Ah that's a shame, seems we got away lightly! Be cool to see some pictures and also what the levels were like. Nice one!

Dan.

[Lancs_lad]

Which one you end up doing? If you park at the top and walk down to Beezley Im sure you dont pass anyone who would make you pay?

From last summer: http://lakesboaters.wordpress.com/2009/08/28/past-adventures/

Looking forward to the pics.

[jmmoxon]

This guy sounds a bit of a twat, So much so that it puts people of going to these rivers hence why they aren't paddled to much.
Its a real dam shame, as it sounds like a right hoot reading through the guide description.

Actually it's his livelihood and he is entitled to charge people what he likes to cross his land to see the waterfalls & is probably mighty p****d off by people trying to avoid payment. Interesting that he didn't consider kayakers to be trespassing until they got off the water.

Mike

[Poke]

If you were going to be charged £5 for getting on each river you paddled, would you pay? In fact, to extrapolate from that, if you had to pay £5 for getting on, £5 for getting off, and £5 for every inspection, would you pay?

[banzer]

Looking forward to the pics guys, I was playing families but would have loved to be there.

Regarding the payment, I kind of see their point. The paths around the waterfalls are well maintained and the entry fee will go towards that. (They'll still be making a hefty profit !) They are not charging you for using the water- that's good. But if you use the paths then, well, it's private land, they have the right to charge, whether we like it or not. Sadly river left is not easy going for portaging or protection.

On the plus side for the owners, most walkers on the path love to watch the rubber-clad idiots flinging themselves off the falls, so we are providing a free entertainment service.

I'm tempted to write a letter to the owner to see if something could be agreed. (NB this is not a river access 'agreement'!) Thoughts?

[banzer]

Opinions on this please.........

TO: The Owner / Manager, Ingleton Waterfalls Walk, Ingleton

Dear Sir / Madam,

I am writing to you as a kayaker who has twice very much enjoyed paddling the River Doe. I have also walked around the Waterfall Circuit countless times, in fact it is my favourite walk in England.

As you are aware the waterfalls of the Doe and the Twiss are becoming more popular with kayakers as modern equipment allows us to paddle such rivers much more safely than, say, ten years ago. However they are considered very challenging and are never likely to attract kayakers in any large numbers.

There have been occasions recently where kayakers have been asked to pay to access these rivers and there have been disagreements where kayakers have felt that, because they were not walking the circuit, they should not be expected to pay. Granted there are small sections of the path that may be used when a particular rapid is not paddled. I feel that this small amount of path use is balanced by the entertainment we provide. On the occasions when I have paddled the falls, I have found that onlookers have greatly enjoyed the spectacle, and many jokes and laughs are shared between walkers and kayakers. In the same way that ramblers do not pay to access the open hillsides, kayakers do not feel they should be asked to pay for every river they paddle. The same goes for rowers, swimmers, open canoes and other users on flatter stretches and lakes. We all aim to leave no trace, and to access and egress the river with care.

Paddlers on this section of river will, like in any outdoor sport, have planned safety cover in the event of an accident. Should an injury occur, however, I should reassure you that that no kayaker would hold an adjacent landowner liable. The water of rivers and streams is not 'owned' hence you have no responsibility for us or our actions.

I would be very interested to hear your opinions on this matter. Perhaps we could find a way for us to approach and leave the river that is agreeable to us both? With your permission I would like to quote your reply on the relevant kayaking website.

Kind regards etc.
Richard Bannister

[markayak]

To be perfectly honest with you banzer. We were all in agreement that if it had not been for the overly aggressive and pestering attitude of the employee towards us then we would have happily paid. It was the fact that Lynsey had paid to use the walk and was not kayaking but he insisted on really hassling her about whether we were going to pay or not. This had nothing to do with her and considering she had paid to enjoy the walk it turned out to be more stressful for her and certainly not enjoyable.

I wonder what their legal position would be with regards to charging kayakers. Most insurance does not cover grade 5 kayaking and I presume that this company has public liability insurance for users of the walk. The walk itself is well fenced of and sign posted with safety in mind. By charging kayakers to paddle the river does this mean that they are encouraging kayaking on grade 5 and should anything happen are they then partly responsible?

I agree that the use of local facilities i.e. carparks and toilets should carry a charge however the right to roam should be free. There are walkways all over the country that require maintenance such as striding edge for example. These types of maintenance carry much higher costs as they involve the use of helicopters to air drop in materials.

I am aware that someone needs to foot the bill but the national trust are acting in the exact same way as I suggested earlier and charging for the parking etc. and they seem to do pretty damn well out of it.

Rant over lol

[markayak]

Nice letter Banzer only just read it after I posted my last message.

[banzer]

I wonder what their legal position would be with regards to charging kayakers. Most insurance does not cover grade 5 kayaking and I presume that this company has public liability insurance for users of the walk. The walk itself is well fenced of and sign posted with safety in mind. By charging kayakers to paddle the river does this mean that they are encouraging kayaking on grade 5 and should anything happen are they then partly responsible?

I like this, but it does sound slightly like blackmail! :-) Worth mentioning, if a letter were to be sent?