London Legacy

[morsey]

As current paddlers we see the direct benefit of having a spangly white water course to play on at the end of the games, but what is the correlation in levels of increased participation of recreational canoeing from the exposure of Olympic competitive canoeing (Sprint, Slalom and demonstration Freestyle)? Are canoe clubs geared up for a general rush of new recruits across the board of disciplines, both competitive and non competitive?

[SimonMW]

I was wondering the same thing. Slalom it seemed, used to be big here. Apparently there was a big increase in uptake in Greece after Athens.

Will be very interesting to see if there is an effect and whether slalom has a bit of resurgence. Would be good perhaps for the used market as I'd like a 3.5m boat but can't afford any of them, even used. Self build anyone?

[Bards]

The BCU presence at the non-ticketed site in Weymouth has been getting around 600 people per day on ergo machines, and the same number on the water, over half of whom have never been in a kayak before at all. All have left enthused and keen to give it another go, full of questions on what their next step should be. The BCU comes in for a lot of stick, but what it's achieving there with the SportEngland funding has "LEGACY" written all over it... hopefully giving the new GoCanoeing initiative a boost http://www.gocanoeing.org.uk/go/ Nice to have Ed Mckeever's training boat there as a focus, too...

No way of knowing in advance how much of a long-term uptake there'll be through this or anything else, and will depend partly on how well TeamGB does with Paddlesport medals and associated TV coverage I imagine. I daresay there'll be some NGB 'data collection' thing going on to measure it, though let's face it, they aren't all that meaningful... Club membership and how busy kayak shops get will be the more reliable old-school measure. Also hopefully there'll be hitch-hiking lifts offered to existing paddlers brandishing a blade whilst shuttling. That's the main thing :-)

Bards

[SimonMW]

Would be nice if the news covered it! We get "Tom Daley fails to qualify for a medal" but not "All our paddlers are through to the semi finals".

[JohnK]

...what is the correlation in levels of increased participation of recreational canoeing from the exposure of Olympic competitive canoeing

Very little. At least not directly.

What it does mean though is if GB wins Olympic medals there's money sloshing around for the successful sports.

My club gets loads of kids doing PaddlePower with hardly any if none going on to compete. By tapping into the money we are able to provide the facilities for these kids to get on the water.

Very few stick with it but what we are finding is that many adults are coming back into the sport who paddled when young. There appears to be a gap between the young paddlers and adults, with very few of the young ones sticking with it. Maybe there are too many other distractions. A key factor to continued progression is parent participation, or at least interest.

As far as competition is concerned, apart from maybe a very small number of high profile competition clubs, I don't think there is any correlation. For competition, in addition to parent involvement there needs to be sufficient local races and suitable local water. These points scupper slalom in many parts of the country.

What we may see though is our PaddlePower paddlers coming back into the sport in 10 years time having been suitably inspired by watching the Olympics and then as recreational canoeists taking to our rough rivers. And then in 20 years we get even more PaddlePower...

[SimonMW]

in addition to parent involvement there needs to be sufficient local races and suitable local water. These points scupper slalom in many parts of the country.

Slalom itself probably needs a bit of reinvention to appeal more to people. The whitewater slalom is exciting to watch, but the flatwater lower divisions are like watching paint dry. I know everyone has to start somewhere, but it just isn't interesting to watch at those levels. Not to mention that the competitors themselves will have to travel longish distances only to get, what, two paddles in a day? That's one reason I gave up Dragonboating. It was a day spent sat around for most of the time.

Contrast this with freestyle. The kids get more on water time, with a more informal atmosphere, and the ability to go straight into having a go on full on white water features right from the beginning. Nobody makes a newbie freestyle competitor go through flat water rankings first.

I want to get my own slalom kayak for practising in on white water, but also because they are nice boats to paddle on flat water too. However I have no interest in entering any slalom competition because of the journey's that would need to be made only to have to pay an entry fee to get two short paddles in (probably on flat water to begin with :-/ ) when I could be spending an entire day for free paddling somewhere else on proper white water.

When I was a kid I remember canoeing/kayaking being featured on TV a lot, with the BBC actually showing it along with their Paddles Up series. With the right coverage and support it could become more popular again along with kayaking/canoeing in general (which is what Morsey was getting at to begin with). But for slalom specifically I do think some sort of reinvention is needed.

Maybe much shorter courses and more qualifying rounds to fit more runs in per day and make it easier for spectators to see more of the whole course, and maybe a new category of boat, perhaps lower in performance than a standard slalom boat, made of rotomoulded plastic but less expensive than the high performance slalom boats. Perhaps something like a cut down Axiom, less fussy outfitting to cut down weight. Designed for competition, but a cheaper option than a full on river runner or carbon/kevlar etc slalom boat. Anything to make it easier to get into the sport and to make it more interesting to compete in/watch.

<ready to be shot down>

[JohnK]

Flat water lower divisions...

That's only because there is a lack of suitable courses (linked with a lack of clubs to set the courses - it's a vicious circle). I'm involved with Frome. We run Langham Farm which is a Div 3 and 4. If there's been no rain it's flat. But it is the only (Div 3, we also run a Div 4 in the centre of Frome which is flat) ranking slalom left in the South West. Do we cancel it? Having said that, both this year and last there was water and over the course of the weekend 25% of paddlers swam on one of their runs so the water can be challenging.

Two paddles in a day...

That's always been the gripe. Apart from your official runs, (in the lower divisions) there is official practice and often unofficial practice. That's often the only time when many younger paddlers get to paddle on rough(ish) water. Certainly during the Summer. Apart from paddling, slalom involves walking the course, going through your strategy for successful negotiation of the gates, and with a club, doing this with your other club members and cheering them on when they race. In the lower divisions there is encouragement for racing in more than one class.

Nobody makes a newbie freestyle competitor go through flat water rankings first

If you have moving water experience you can start in Division 2.

Much shorter courses

Courses are much shorter these days 100 secs target.

New category of boat

That's not needed, there is all you want already. There are composite 3.5m boats, there are plastic 3.5m boats eg. Fox, and you can actually race with an Axiom or any other plastic boat if you want.

The bottom line is in many parts of the country there is a lack of suitable water and a lack of races. But we encourage slalom and we do slalom training because we believe there is a cross-over benefit to other forms of paddling. And as you say above they are nice to paddle.

[GregS]

Slalom [...] two paddles in a day? [...] Nobody makes a newbie freestyle competitor go through flat water rankings first [...] standard slalom boat, made of rotomoulded plastic but less expensive than the high performance slalom boats

Back in the 1980s, slalom was huge. Fundamentally, if you wanted to paddle white water... that's how you developed the skills! We didn't "do" rocks, or "epics": we avoided them - and the way to learn to do that (back then) was to develop the precision to nail gates. Slalom was where we learned to cross eddy lines at pace, and to "work" rivers. I don't recall anyone who paddled Grade 3+ rivers who wasn't at least a veteran Div 4 slalom paddler - and until the Dancer came along, those slalom boats were often what got used for river running!!!

The term "competition" sometimes gets bandied around in misleading fashion with regard to slalom, as if in opposition to "recreation" - but not by anyone who actually knows what slalom was like! Lots of more experienced folk went along to Div 4 / Novice events for sociable weekends away: camping with friends, drinking beer, sharing BBQs and having a laugh - with everyone running down the bank to cheer on the club members doing competition runs, whether in the dominant K1 individual and team events and/or (especially for veterans) in the C1, C2 or Judges events.

The veterans might only paddle for an hour in a weekend... but some of us were routinely getting 8+ hours of paddling in over the two days. ON Saturday nights, I was routinely dragged off the water by a senior club member who took pains to point out that it was actually... erm... dark! That would be at the end of a free-practice session that I'd started late in the afternoon!

A generation later... I get the impression that canoeists across the UK would be better off if their grotesque plastic tubs suddenly turned into 3.5m slalom boats boasting decent on-water performance... and if paddling slalom returned to prominence as the main route into WW paddling - but that's from one completely underwhelmed by the bizarre craze for so-called "Freestyle"...

[SimonMW]

Greg, speaking to one of the guys who I paddle with who was taught in that era (well the 60's to be more accurate. He still has his original canvas kayaks apparently!) I agree with a lot of the way things were done. The plastic boats have allowed people to get a taste for the activity much more quickly than before, which is great. But is is a shame that slalom skills are lost on some.

I do find it odd though that slalom skills are often dismissed by many of the newer paddlers. Whether they cannot see the correlation between river running I do not know. But it is a shame.

The commentators mentioned that in (Slovenia?) slalom is a national sport. If the TV gave more coverage to it, like they used to, it could become more popular again. It is odd, because the top level slalom is great to watch and visually great for TV, but they would prefer football and rugby etc. The BBC used to support lesser known smaller sports. They need to wake up and realise that as an organisation that doesn't rely on advertising that is what they should be doing again.

[SimonMW]

Don't think the theme from Chariots of Fire will ever be the same again. The version they are playing for the slalom medal ceremony is a dubstep version!

[Sickboy]

Is there a market for a basic fibreglass 3.5m slalom boat? It should be possible to produce it even cheaper than a fox or donsa, basic glass boats have always been the cheap way to get on the water (still is with canoes).
Are there molds already out there?

[SimonMW]

Vajda etc make fibreglass versions of their boats for training in. They use the same moulds AFAIK,

[Sickboy]

Vajda etc make fibreglass versions of their boats for training in. They use the same moulds AFAIK,

I suppose the question is 'how cheap?' They'll still want to make a working profit, plus pay for R'nD that went before, add your import tax, importers and shops profits. It's the same with all boats but a basic glassfibre boat should be costing the materials your putting in it.

[quicky]

There two people who could do more for legacy than anyone else and get admitted into law that all water users have always had access to rivers and stop all the bull about 'access agreements being the only way'

Unfortunately when you twitter them they just delete some of your posts...

https://twitter.com/QuickyDesign/status ... 9559749633

https://twitter.com/simonmw/status/231040150656917504

David Miliband ‏@DMiliband

Now on canoe slalom... Gold and silver - yessss!

anyone else tweet?

[carboncraft]

Vajda etc make fibreglass versions of their boats for training in. They use the same moulds AFAIK,

I suppose the question is 'how cheap?' They'll still want to make a working profit, plus pay for R'nD that went before, add your import tax, importers and shops profits. It's the same with all boats but a basic glassfibre boat should be costing the materials your putting in it.

I have worked with 2 manufacture in the UK who can produce a S Glass boat in epoxy with Carbon Kevlar patches for 425.00, a Epoxy Carbon Kevlar composite boat for 650.00 and a full Carbon Kevlar PrePreg boat for 977.00, the mould thay have are not a "Top design" but are competive, big problem is no intrest unless the boat has a big manufactures name on it, ironically some of the features curently being used by the big boys, they have been doing for a couple of years. our viev is most people want a Ferrari when a focus will do?

[SimonMW]

the mould thay have are not a "Top design" but are competive

Speaking of which, just what are the differences between models? On a creekboat or river runner and playboat I can look at the hull and see the differences. On a slalom boat I can't. Yet manufacturers like Vajda, Nomad etc all have different models that they have different performance characteristics. Subtle difference in rocker profile? Different hull width?

I know in another thread someone said that you can take an Axiom etc and put it into lower level slalom events. However the difference between paddling a plastic boat and even a good glass one is night and day from what I have recently discovered. A carbon one must be amazing to paddle.

[ChrisE]

If you want to get more people back into the competitive side it's simple, do it on harder rivers in the acceptance of plastic boats only (and possibly not even slalom design). Make the challenge the water not so much the speed.
I used to do WWR but I've mostly stopped and now do recreational stuff, and am unlikely to go back to WWR as the rivers used are too easy. (this is mostly because of the suitible rivers to get a WWR boat down, change the general acceptance of boat design, and change the rivers).
To step it up it just needs a leaf out of things like the moriston race in scotland etc where everyone is competing in creek boats.

I did some slalom but never really got into it so much, but all the races I did the water was very easy (yes it was the lower divisions and I was rather young at the time) but the point is that the top sites where the top races happens just aren't so challenging to alot of people as running a nice hard river.

There will be more problems with this sort of idea in the way of water levels, and potentially finding stretches of decent hard water that is the right length for slalom and with the access to set up gates, but I think there is a need for a shift of enthesis to bring in the recreational river runners for the water challenge rather than so much the speed, and hence create a resurgence.

[SimonMW]

There will be more problems with this sort of idea in the way of water levels, and potentially finding stretches of decent hard water that is the right length for slalom and with the access to set up gates, but I think there is a need for a shift of enthesis to bring in the recreational river runners for the water challenge rather than so much the speed, and hence create a resurgence.

Not sure I agree. I do think that there needs to be some thought going into how to change the image and improve things from the outsiders point of view (of which I am one). Though I am not sure that trying to shift things over into more of a rock bash straight down a course is the way to do it.

One of the things I like most about slalom is the skill side, and the very fact that you have to be precise to get through the gates. After all slalom was developed in the first place to develop river running skills and accuracy. These days people actually aim for the rocks rather than avoiding them!

The skill and grace of slalom is what I like about it. I like the speed and grace of the boats themselves too. Obtaining more decent WW for slalom to take place on will take more WW course development. Whether that is a facility like Lee Valley, or more practically someone to start redeveloping all the dangerous weir channels dotted around the country and using the resulting gradient to create new courses. For slalom to increase we need more reliable and consistent water, and access to that water. Otherwise it'll be left to the same old places with the same old issues of having to travel long distances to get to them.

My feeling is that the medals at the Olympics may influence some people to seek out where they can learn slalom or take up kayaking etc, especially those who were actually at the venue and who hadn't seen it before. But that once they approach one of the many clubs around the country they will find a) that the club has no interest in slalom (usually the case) b) if they do have any interest in slalom there is only dull flatwater to train on, c) the sheer amount of travelling to get to any decent water. The big issue with slalom is that even if you have an interest in doing it, there are a number of obstacles standing in the way of being able to do it and practice regularly at it depending on where you are in the country.

PS, judging by the number of capsizes, and even people like Mike Dawson getting carried off downstream, I don't think that the Lee Valley water could be classed as "easy"!

[ChrisE]

Lee vallley is the hardest course in Britain now I think.

also I didn't mean get rid of the skills and gates at all, just on harder stuff. Where a lot of the problem in Britain is the general lack of higher volume fast moving stuff, but I think there could be some possibilities on things like the Garry maybe, but there might need a change of format slightly to have a couple of bits on shorter rapids or something.

for more straight down river rock bashing, thats getting rid of the gates and proper hard rivers and is the relems of white water race not slalom.

[ChrisE]

But I do agree with your later 2 paragraphs.

[Dave Manby]

For the older paddler Ray Calverly has been given the job of increasing the "veterans" paddling slalom. So if you are an ageing paddler who grew up in the days of 120+ start lists and want to get back into slalom contact the BCU and see what they are offering and help Ray formulate the veteran scene as you would like it!

[Sickboy]

PS, judging by the number of capsizes, and even people like Mike Dawson getting carried off downstream, I don't think that the Lee Valley water could be classed as "easy"!

The lower divisions are done on the Legacy course, about a grade 3 (ish), went up and watched the Div 2/3 there last August.
Not sure that Div3 was a great idea in general, much chaos for sure.
Even I felt bad laughing my taint off at a very small child getting munched in a 4m boat then pulling his deck and dropping out of the airborn boat into said hole, not sure he saw the fun side of slalom during all this, my stomach hurt for hours.
That said, I'd be tempted to have a go if I could start off doing that course, having sat through a few hours of Div2/3 Yalding boredom I'd rather have my teeth pulled out.

[BaldockBabe]

That said, I'd be tempted to have a go if I could start off doing that course, having sat through a few hours of Div2/3 Yalding boredom I'd rather have my teeth pulled out.

You can! As stated above if you are already a paddler you can apply for ranking straight into Division 2. If you want to go into Division 1 the best way would be to do an officials run at a Division 1 event and if you are up there with the others in time apply for ranking into Division 1. That is what Lowri Davies has done. Slalom wants to encourrage people to join in, not discourage them!

The Div 2/3 on the Legacy course was one of my favourite events of all time. Acting as safety in one of the boats at the bottom I was concerned when the first two paddlers down the course (one Div 1 K1W and one Div 2 Vet K1M) both swam! However, other than the one child we pulled out of an eddy still in his boat, the kids we pulled out at the bottom were all laughing and smiling. They didn't seem to care about swimming! Only two K1 boats failed to complete a run and once C2 boat (who were members of my club and had a great day). If only it were not so expensive I would love for another event to be run there next year...

Generally I would say that by adding some slalom poles onto water you can make lower grade water more tricky and interesting than it is without the poles (e.g Tully, Washburn, Trywerwyn). You don't need big volume water to make it interesting.

[Dave Manby]

Really if you look at the entry fees of other events then slalom fees aren't that expensive - an entry for a triathlon can cost 60 quid!

[Andee B]

Expensive to run I think? Not sure what is costs to hire the Legacy Loop for a Div2/3 event, but it's probably a great deal more than what you'd get back in entry fees.

Do the extra medals mean we'll get a bigger slice of the UKSport cake and if so will this be used for hiring the Olympic run for Prem/1 events as well as to fund races like this for the lower divisions - I'd like to think so.

I agree it was the best 2/3 I've seen. My lad was almost upset that he didn't swim - it looked good fun to him :)
http://www.manchestercanoeclub.org.uk/g ... alley.html

[Eliza Dolittle]

Are canoe clubs geared up for a general rush of new recruits across the board of disciplines, both competitive and non competitive?

We are running a taster session on Saturday 18th Aug, I advertised it on our club website and the "Join In" one. I've had to set up a waiting list as we have been inundated with requests, 15 from the "Join in" site and another 8 finding the club through the Canoe England site! (Yes, I know everyone thinks it's rubbish) plus some from friends of existing club members. As a Club we are fortunate to be able to offer flatwater racing and to also namedrop former member Helen Reeves. In practice, any member who wants to take slalom seriously will, like Helen, get directed to Shepperton Slalom club. We have timetabled additional beginners courses for September, it is too early to say what the uptake will be though, and whether we can retain their interest and activity through the winter.
My husband is involved in archery and he says that all the beginners courses in Surrey were fully booked within a few days of the Olympic archery programme finishing.

[ChrisE]

I think the fact that you've had to set up a waiting list shows that you can't cope well with the massive influx. If the waiting list gets too long and people wait for too long then they'll just give up.

[Eliza Dolittle]

I have been surprised by the amount of interest we have received. I thought an extra taster session and some 1 star courses was being prepared for the Olympics. Canoe England had told us to expect an increase in the amount of people wanting to try the sport, just not how many extra people. I blame the BBC, previous hits from websites like "Go Canoeing" for taster sessions have usually only yielded one or two people. Both the "Join in" website and the "Canoe England" website have had direct links from the BBC Canoe Slalom and Canoe Sprint pages so it is easy to find information about events even if you don't know the best place to look.

[ChrisE]

Indeed, and there is no real way to know in advance what the uptake might be, and good work with brining all of them in that you can.

[SimonMW]

That was my fear, that people might be inspired to take up canoeing and kayaking, or specifically slalom, but then they would approach clubs and they wouldn't have any interest in providing slalom or they wouldn't have the ability to cope with numbers. One of the local clubs near here has told people recently that they can't take on any more members, mainly because they say they haven't got enough members who are coach qualified.